Rule Discussion:: CivAssist II

[Tubby Rower]

Can we have a discussion and vote on using CivAssist and/or any other external programs?

There is some information that is available in CA2 that is not available in the game. I realize that I was one of the major supporters of using it in the first MTDG, but that was my first MP game in . I didn't know the differences between SP & MP games. We actually had to create test games to see what happened in different situations in Team KISS. Now that I have MTDG, ISDG, and a few PBEM games under my belt, I know that there is some spoiler information available in CA2.

The ISDG doesn't allow use of external saved-game readers. And I don't think that this game should either

 

[Ginger_Ale]

I think the MTDG is such that, since it goes turn-by-turn, micromanaging is sort of easy, almost second nature. You have all the time you want to worry about playing just that 1 turn, so yeah, I see your point about banning CA2 (and others).

I don't mind if you guys want to ban it. I think if we poll this, it should be done by everyone, not just the teams. It's more a personal issue, I think.

 

[Chamnix]

I know ainwood intended it to be spoiler-free - what spoiler information is there?

 

[fe3333au]

While I'm not eager to use it because it does give those who do not a disadvantage IMO.

Is there anyway to really police this?

 

[Tubby Rower]

yes the same way we police replaying a save. Just don't do it if it's banned. There's no way to find out if someone is using it.

 

[gbno1fan]

I would like to use CAII. It isn't necessarily a MM issue, but rather an easy way to compile information for reporting to the team in a clean manner.

For example, a screenshot of a table from CAII takes up a lot less space and is much easier to understand than a screenshot of the Domestic Advisor screen.

 

[Whomp]

One of the reasons I suggested not using CAII is it gives more detailed information about your opponents than the foreign advisor screen which simply tells you what your opponent does not have. By eliminating it there would be more left to the imagination in diplomacy and add another interesting element to the game.

As Ginger Ale said it's only one turn that mm'ing needs to be done.

 

[RFHolloway]

Is the difference simply that you can't see the opponents half of the trade screen in multiplayer, so you have no legitemate way to count opponents techs, resources available, or cities you haven't seen. This is available in single player, so isn't regarded as spoiler info.

 

[Whomp]

Is the difference simply that you can't see the opponents half of the trade screen in multiplayer, so you have no legitemate way to count opponents techs, resources available, or cities you haven't seen. This is available in single player, so isn't regarded as spoiler info.

It is different in pbem. You can not see techs, resources, cities, gold. I think that adds a dimension to human vs. human diplo that could make things that much more interesting.

 

[fe3333au]

@RFHolloway ... yes that is exactly the reason.

I tend to agree with Whomp.

However, if it is allowed, then perhaps ensure that it is available to ALL teams ... my system and slow dialup prohibits its use.

 

[Chamnix]

It is different in pbem. You can not see techs, resources, cities, gold

Forgive my ignorance - CAII would not work on my old computer so I am not very familiar with it, but does CAII show this information in a multiplayer game? If it does show gold or number of cities, then I agree that is spoiler information and should be banned. For techs - well, that depends on exactly what it shows, since it is certainly possible to glean more information about rivals' techs legitimately than is shown by the Foreign Advisor.

I'm not really sure I prefer to allow CAII anyway, since there are other reasons to consider banning it, but is there really spoiler information? If yes, then I think the decision is a no-brainer; if no, then let's drop the spoiler argument and talk about other reasons to ban or to allow.

 

[Whomp]

Cham the foreign advisor screen on pbems simply show what techs/lux/resources your opponent does not have. IE what's available to export (no imports). No gold is displayed and no cities are shown.

The only way to get any information on opponents tech situation is seeing the price of a researched tech come down in price (through turns to completion).

This is why the ISDG banned it for the finals.

 

[gbno1fan]

Can't the price of a researched tech be determined by closely monitoring how long it takes to research a tech compared to how many beakers you are generating?

 

[Whomp]

Can't the price of a researched tech be determined by closely monitoring how long it takes to research a tech compared to how many beakers you are generating?

It could but that would require a little team effort.

 

[fe3333au]

Regarding the lowering of tech cost, yes that is evident in the Science Screen ... however you cannot be sure which of the rivals have it. If the CAII utility shows this information, then surely it puts other teams at a disadvantage.

 

[gbno1fan]

It could but that would require a little team effort.

Then it's not spoiler info.

Regarding the lowering of tech cost, yes that is evident in the Science Screen ... however you cannot be sure which of the rivals have it. If the CAII utility shows this information, then surely it puts other teams at a disadvantage.

As I recall, CAII only shows this information in single-player mode. I may be mistaken but it doesn't show it in multi-player.

Also, this can be determined by monitoring score increases. When a team's score increases substantially on the same turn that the tech cost drops, it can be assumed that they are the team that learned the tech.

 

[Whomp]

G(raham)B(uffet)--I guess spoiler is the wrong word. However, it wouldn't give you information on techs you aren't researching which CAII would along with the resources and lux info. The resource one is big imo. Take an example...if that mountain MIA negotiated had been in our hands we would've controlled all the saltpeter. You would not know this without CAII

Plus you democracies teams have to put your players to work in needless jobs to keep their interest up.

 

[Chamnix]

Cham the foreign advisor screen on pbems simply show what techs/lux/resources your opponent does not have. IE what's available to export (no imports). No gold is displayed and no cities are shown.

I understand what the game/Foreign Advisor shows (I did play a turn or two last game ) - my question is what does CAII show that is not shown in game?

X-posted there - I guess I'll fire up CAII on my brand spankin' new computer at home and load some previous MTDG saves to see what it shows for resources and techs. I agree completely that if CAII has information that the game doesn't, then it shouldn't be used, but I'm still not understanding exactly what information that is.

 

[Whomp]

I understand what the game/Foreign Advisor shows (I did play a turn or two last game ) - my question is what does CAII show that is not shown in game?

X-posted there - I guess I'll fire up CAII on my brand spankin' new computer at home and load some previous MTDG saves to see what it shows for resources and techs. I agree completely that if CAII has information that the game doesn't, then it shouldn't be used, but I'm still not understanding exactly what information that is.

Oh I know. Believe me I know.
The foreign advisor screen when you dial up an opponent only shows what you are up on that opponent. IE Techs, luxs, resources.

It does not show what they have that you do not know. For instance, it does not show how much gold, gpt, resources and luxs they have nor number of cities.

 

[Empiremaker]

I think not because if a turn-player can't run it for whatever reason it puts them at a disadvantage, and CAII gives spoiler info.

Plus you democracies teams have to put your players to work in needless jobs to keep their interest up.

I didn't think of this and I completly agree.