Rumor about why the UI is the way it is.

[Lion King]

There are traces of old UI design to be found in various places, and it is evident that some wonderful work has been scrapped. But an ayahuasca trip being a reason for the mess???

Is there a way we can pull back the old UI from the files for the game mods? Some stuff (especially city banners) looks gorgeous and must be included in the game, I can't even play now with the current oversized banners knowing there were such a nicely designed ones.

 

[KayAU]

UI's being primarily designed for consoles has been an unholy plague on PC gaming for a while now. I doubt Civ 7 is the worst offender (as that would be Skyrim), but I really hope the backlash they are receiving can motivate T2/FXS to invest more resources towards making a proper UI for PC.

 

[UWHabs]

UI's being primarily designed for consoles has been an unholy plague on PC gaming for a while now. I doubt Civ 7 is the worst offender (as that would be Skyrim), but I really hope the backlash they are receiving can motivate T2/FXS to invest more resources towards making a proper UI for PC.

I know you like to keep things as consistent across platforms as you can, but there's definitely times when you can make differences. Maybe the console version is missing some tooltips or more advanced options, but the first priority does need to make sure the core userbase has a solid experience, and you can come back and add back those other options later to the harder to design for platforms.

 

[Potworny]

Is there a way we can pull back the old UI from the files for the game mods? Some stuff (especially city banners) looks gorgeous and must be included in the game, I can't even play now with the current oversized banners knowing there were such a nicely designed ones.

Agreed on the city banners. If there is something in the baked texture files, and someone comes up with a way to access them (for example an in-game viewer from which one could rip the textures, but I don't know if that'd be allowed) then maaaybe. There are little crumbs in the form of .png files, but not enough. Either way, it would require tremendous effort if it's even possible.

 

[SukoDeFruta]

I really doubt the UI was designed with consoles in mind since you have to tap a small button to see the city details even with the city screen open. There is room to always have the details visible, but they opted for multiple buttons and tabs for everything.

Also, having played Civilization Revolution and Civilization 6 on consoles, I can say that it has never been so annoying and tiresome to scroll through the city production screen and choose a building/unit/project/wonder.

 

[tman2000]

I really doubt the UI was designed with consoles in mind since you have to tap a small button to see the city details even with the city screen open. There is room to always have the details visible, but they opted for multiple buttons and tabs for everything.

Also, having played Civilization Revolution and Civilization 6 on consoles, I can say that it has never been so annoying and tiresome to scroll through the city production screen and choose a building/unit/project/wonder.

Agreed. It's not a console UI, it's a cheap/rushed junior web dev on fiverr UI.

We're having Bulgaria release with missing database values and missing descriptions on interface panels. With civs that don't unlock. With bugged out wonders. I don't want to keep hearing how hard it is to push through changes in only 3 weeks. Is Firaxis like 5 people who work 6 hours a day? What's the problem? They charged $30 for this. Big L. Both studio management and corporate messed up really badly somehow and it's perplexing. People need to retire and they need a new staff.

 

[tman2000]

I'm going through some game files right now trying to do an exploration age mod. I'm using the DLC Bulgaria files as a base. Um... So there's a big, simple config file that like names your civ and at the bottom of it are the unlocks and they're like... empty... in some of the DLC files. And, um, people have complained they fulfill the requirements to unlock civs like GB and they won't unlock.

Like, 3 lines of code in a top level xml file are just missing, for unlocks, an essential, basic feature of a civ.

I also have encountered a couple of typos like SHAHANSHAH was spelled "SAHANSHAH". If you're playing exploration as Bulgaria and have that tradition slotted and its not working, um, that's why.

I have trouble believing this. I mean, typos and mistakes happen, but like, it sort of seems like there are all of 5 people working part time like as gig hires on these major $30 DLCs. Like, what is the rest of the Firaxis team doing?

EDIT: When this sort of thing started happening to "2010s" cultural products like Game of Thrones etc, such as with BGS and Starfield recently, there was always this notion that teams had moved on because they have to work on the new better next thing that will get it right this time. I'm just not convinced that's at all happening. What's going on here?

 

[pokiehl]

I'm going through some game files right now trying to do an exploration age mod. I'm using the DLC Bulgaria files as a base. Um... So there's a big, simple config file that like names your civ and at the bottom of it are the unlocks and they're like... empty... in some of the DLC files. And, um, people have complained they fulfill the requirements to unlock civs like GB and they won't unlock.

Like, 3 lines of code in a top level xml file are just missing, for unlocks, an essential, basic feature of a civ.

I also have encountered a couple of typos like SHAHANSHAH was spelled "SAHANSHAH". If you're playing exploration as Bulgaria and have that tradition slotted and its not working, um, that's why.

I have trouble believing this. I mean, typos and mistakes happen, but like, it sort of seems like there are all of 5 people working part time like as gig hires on these major $30 DLCs. Like, what is the rest of the Firaxis team doing?

EDIT: When this sort of thing started happening to "2010s" cultural products like Game of Thrones etc, such as with BGS and Starfield recently, there was always this notion that teams had moved on because they have to work on the new better next thing that will get it right this time. I'm just not convinced that's at all happening. What's going on here?

You're mistaken on both of these things here.

- Bulgaria's unlock conditions are coded properly and work properly. There are specific XML files where the unlocks are specified. This is the downside of trying to figure out the game's database through looking at XML files. The way they're split up is essentially arbitrary for an internal organizational purpose, and that might not be apparent to a fan clicking through the game files.

- That Tradition is spelled properly in game and in fact works properly. The "SAHANSHAH" typo is in a tag name, which has nothing to do with whether it works properly or not, and isn't even related to whether it's spelled properly in game. (The tags themselves are, again, arbitrary. They could've called it BOZOTHECLOWN and it'd still work properly. "SAHANSHAH", as an arbitary tag, is not customer-facing. "Fixing" that would be a waste of time and could easily break other things that are downstream referencing the tag.)

 

[tman2000]

You're mistaken on both of these things here.

- Bulgaria's unlock conditions are coded properly and work properly. There are specific XML files where the unlocks are specified. This is the downside of trying to figure out the game's database through looking at XML files. The way they're split up is essentially arbitrary for an internal organizational purpose, and that might not be apparent to a fan clicking through the game files.

- That Tradition is spelled properly in game and in fact works properly. The "SAHANSHAH" typo is in a tag name, which has nothing to do with whether it works properly or not, and isn't even related to whether it's spelled properly in game. (The tags themselves are, again, arbitrary. They could've called it BOZOTHECLOWN and it'd still work properly. "SAHANSHAH", as an arbitary tag, is not customer-facing. "Fixing" that would be a waste of time and could easily break other things that are downstream referencing the tag.)

I believe you on the first thing, but the fact is the bug did occur for many people so "internal organizational purposes" seems to be the failure point right?

"SAHANSHAH" is a very specific typo that would have to be replicated in that very specific use case, when the best practice would be to simply spell it correctly then anywhere you go in the files where it's spelled wrong, you'll immediately know what to correct rather than trying to track down where and when they just "went with" the typo.

However, I just found another error which was assigning the one of the Bulgaria transition icons as "Buganda" which is clearly the result of typing BU.. then hitting tab. I'm just saying this seems like one or two guys spending the minimal amount of time to get something functional out the door and all I'm asking is where is their software development team and what is it doing?

But anyway, people can think I'm wrong about this. Not making a federal case out of it, just observing stuff.

 

[pokiehl]

I believe you on the first thing, but the fact is the bug did occur for many people so "internal organizational purposes" seems to be the failure point right?

That's not the failure point. It literally doesn't matter at all how the XML files are split up or sorted.

Various unlock conditions were or have been bugged to due to issues under the hood, beyond XML files and having nothing to do with that. Siam's unlocks, for instance, were completely defined correctly in the database via XML but were bugged anyway.

"SAHANSHAH" is a very specific typo that would have to be replicated in that very specific use case, when the best practice would be to simply spell it correctly then anywhere you go in the files where it's spelled wrong, you'll immediately know what to correct rather than trying to track down where and when they just "went with" the typo.

I'm not understanding your point. You claimed that the Tradition was not working properly (it is in fact working properly), and that the reason it wasn't working is because of the typo (which, as I said, is irrelevant).

But anyway, people can think I'm wrong about this. Not making a federal case out of it, just observing stuff.

I'm not making a "case" out of it either. You made 2 specific points and all I was doing was responding to them in order to clarify the inaccuracies.

 

[AriochIV]

Does it really matter? "When the bullet hits your skull, what will it matter why??"

 

[pokiehl]

Does it really matter? "When the bullet hits your skull, what will it matter why??"

It seems like every time someone makes an incorrect claim and it gets corrected on this forum, someone comes out of the woodwork to imply that the act of correcting it is being pedantic. "Don't let facts get in the way of a good story", right?

I'm not even sure where you're getting that from in my post. Did I comment at all on the user's insinuations about the quality of the game? No. He made 2 specific claims that were factually wrong, and I pointed that out.

That's really it. I didn't say or imply anything else. If you want to point out the lack of polish in this game, you don't need to look very hard for better examples than misunderstanding how the XML is set up or non-customer-facing typos.

 

[tman2000]

It seems like every time someone makes an incorrect claim and it gets corrected on this forum, someone comes out of the woodwork to imply that the act of correcting it is being pedantic. "Don't let facts get in the way of a good story", right?

I'm not even sure where you're getting that from in my post. Did I comment at all on the user's insinuations about the quality of the game? No. He made 2 specific claims that were factually wrong, and I pointed that out.

That's really it. I didn't say or imply anything else. If you want to point out the lack of polish in this game, you don't need to look very hard for better examples than misunderstanding how the XML is set up or non-customer-facing typos.

When you say
"I'm not understanding your point" when my point was clear, and then you go on to deem your opinion of whether a mistake in the code might be indicative of a larger problem or not as factual and conclusive, then it leads to situations where other people are still concerned about an issue while you're trying to move on.

You're not operating with pure and clear facts. This is your opinion and the pedantic part is when you uphold your opinion as fact.

In my opinion, leaving a "SAHHANSAH" in is proof of a kind of minimal level of care and rushed work that is troubling and provides explanatory power to other problems we see that are hard to explain. I think, not to put words in your mouth, that you're taking an establishmentarian attitude and by deeming that opinion as hierarchically superior and correct, you can then demand that the burden of proofs lies on everyone who is critical of the development to provide ironclad facts, while you can simply assert that there are better, veiled, explanations for the hard evidence we do put forth.

Anyway, I'm not interested in a fight or anything like that. Just, again, no I don't think you have facts on your side. Just enough lack of evidence in general to maintain an apologia for the establishment position.

 

[stealth_nsk]

When you say
"I'm not understanding your point" when my point was clear, and then you go on to deem your opinion of whether a mistake in the code might be indicative of a larger problem or not as factual and conclusive, then it leads to situations where other people are still concerned about an issue while you're trying to move on.

You're not operating with pure and clear facts. This is your opinion and the pedantic part is when you uphold your opinion as fact.

In my opinion, leaving a "SAHHANSAH" in is proof of a kind of minimal level of care and rushed work that is troubling and provides explanatory power to other problems we see that are hard to explain. I think, not to put words in your mouth, that you're taking an establishmentarian attitude and by deeming that opinion as hierarchically superior and correct, you can then demand that the burden of proofs lies on everyone who is critical of the development to provide ironclad facts, while you can simply assert that there are better, veiled, explanations for the hard evidence we do put forth.

Anyway, I'm not interested in a fight or anything like that. Just, again, no I don't think you have facts on your side. Just enough lack of evidence in general to maintain an apologia for the establishment position.

I'm sorry to say it, but in this discussion I see one person who knows how software and software development works and the one who don't have such experience.

Tag/variable names are given by engineers and they often contain bad misspellings, because nobody expects engineers to be good in linguistics. Not only does it have zero meaning, it's quite the opposite. If the company spends efforts on forcing engineers to give correctly spelled names to variables, that would be indication on big problems with processes.

 

[KayAU]

I'm sorry to say it, but in this discussion I see one person who knows how software and software development works and the one who don't have such experience.

Tag/variable names are given by engineers and they often contain bad misspellings, because nobody expects engineers to be good in linguistics. Not only does it have zero meaning, it's quite the opposite. If the company spends efforts on forcing engineers to give correctly spelled names to variables, that would be indication on big problems with processes.

Yes and no. In my experience, engineers and companies can be quite different when it comes to this. Personally, I will definitely go out of my way to make sure all names are spelled both correctly and consistently. This is in part because it would otherwise annoy me every time I looked at the code, but also because some of the code I write may be safety critical, and inconsistent naming and spelling could in some cases lead to bugs.

Note that I am commenting on a general basis here, I am not saying that I agree that writing "SAHHANSAH" instead of "SHAHANSHAH" means that the Civ 7 developers necessarily have shown a minimum level of care, or that development is rushed. I just want to nuance what you said about developers/engineers in general. Some indeed are bad at spelling, and may still be good developers. But for every project I have had lead on, I 100% expect stuff to be spelled correctly and consistently.

 

[protocol7]

I also work in technology, video games specifically, and can confirm that spelling things correctly and consistently in code (and tags do need to be spelled consistently to be associated with each other) is a sign of caring and projects where people don’t care about craftsmanship in that way is often reflected in the final product.

 

[Melkus]

As a coder - I would 100% stay away from correcting this kind of spelling error in this phase of a project (with a lot of relevant work to be done). The risk of messing something up is so much higher than the possible gain. Not that the risk is super high with a good IDE - still a risk.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Yes and no. In my experience, engineers and companies can be quite different when it comes to this. Personally, I will definitely go out of my way to make sure all names are spelled both correctly and consistently. This is in part because it would otherwise annoy me every time I looked at the code, but also because some of the code I write may be safety critical, and inconsistent naming and spelling could in some cases lead to bugs.

Note that I am commenting on a general basis here, I am not saying that I agree that writing "SAHHANSAH" instead of "SHAHANSHAH" means that the Civ 7 developers necessarily have shown a minimum level of care, or that development is rushed. I just want to nuance what you said about developers/engineers in general. Some indeed are bad at spelling, and may still be good developers. But for every project I have had lead on, I 100% expect stuff to be spelled correctly and consistently.

1. I have quite different experience, because I mostly work with non-native speaker engineers, who misspell even simple English words, not to mention some less-known historical names.
2. When names are part of API created separately, leadership could review them. But if they are created in code first and when exposed in some API, I can't see a process where any management person would validate the variable names. And it's generally considered toxic behavior to point at spelling errors in code review.

Overall it's important to remember that Civ7 doesn't yet have any official modding tools, so all files we interact with are technically internal.

 

[protocol7]

You can’t really have it both ways, that there’s no possible way for a tag to impact the behaviour so it doesn’t matter if they spell them all kinds of different incorrect ways, but also they are dangerous to touch because of the risk of messing something up.

And anyway if they are in such a bad situation that everyone is panic mode and there’s no way to make dlc work in the first place, much less fix it later, or even to think about quality or craftsmanship maybe just delay the dlc. Fix the culture so it’s not toxic to care about consistency and quality, and then try again.

 

[aelf]

It seems like every time someone makes an incorrect claim and it gets corrected on this forum, someone comes out of the woodwork to imply that the act of correcting it is being pedantic.

We still haven't gotten to the step in this cycle where people claim that criticism is thus being silenced!