Russia and Communism

[Cheezy the Wiz]

It would be interesting if you can provide some data about the eceonomic situation, standart of living, level of education, industrial power and etc. in pre-war Russia and then compare them with the results from the early days if the soviet union(1920s). Though that may be a little tricky because the communist had the bad habbit to manipulate statistics and represend to the public events that never happend and facts that are not true...

They would very obviously be worse, as the country first went through a devastating world war, then an even worse civil war. The agricultural sector was quite literally in ruins, as was the populace expected to farm it; industry was completely wrecked because of extensive demands after years and years of war, and policies like education had zero time to take effect. It was a catastrophe like none of us can imagine. How dare you point at the before and after and declare that what came after must be worse than what was before. And you expect me to take you seriously?

 

[Tycho]

They would very obviously be worse, as the country first went through a devastating world war, then an even worse civil war. The agricultural sector was quite literally in ruins, as was the populace expected to farm it; industry was completely wrecked because of extensive demands after years and years of war, and policies like education had zero time to take effect. It was a catastrophe like none of us can imagine. How dare you point at the before and after and declare that what came after must be worse than what was before. And you expect me to take you seriously?

Let's try to rephrase the question to a better standard and try to hold or at least act like we are trying to hold a civil discussion. At what point after the Bolshevik Revolution had Russia recovered and either equaled or improved on the statistics before the Revolution? That's a start right there, no?

 

[red_elk]

Let's try to rephrase the question to a better standard and try to hold or at least act like we are trying to hold a civil discussion. At what point after the Bolshevik Revolution had Russia recovered and either equaled or improved on the statistics before the Revolution? That's a start right there, no?

It of course depends on what kind of indicators you want to use.
Usually such statistics is compared against pre-war, 1913 year which was pretty good in some aspects (record harvest, for instance). I think it's safe to say that country had recovered by early or mid 1930s.
Hunger, which happened regularly in Russian Empire despite more than 80% of peasant population, was eliminated only after agrarian reform (infamous collectivization) - except few post-war years there were no more hunger in USSR.
Industry started growing rapidly at the same period. Other notable reforms (Likbez, GOELRO) also increased quality of life.
Life expectancy increased from 32 years (1900) to 44 years (1927), but reached the level of the most developed nations only after WW2, approximately in 1960.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Well, it depends on what aspects of agriculture you have in mind. Reaped grain harvest, certainly in the early 1930s. Cattle, however, took an unexpected turn. With forced collectivization and the wholesale acquisition of land and cattle came the massive slaughter of cattle by angry peasants - that's right, they would rather kill off their flocks than see them serve a greater purpose - such that whatever recovery in the area of cattle heads happened in the 1920s was both erased and reversed. Cattle head counts did not reach pre-revolution numbers until the 1960s, such was the catastrophe at hand. Yet starvation and shortage in that time is held to be a communist-orchestrated event...

 

[red_elk]

Well, it depends on what aspects of agriculture you have in mind. Reaped grain harvest, certainly in the early 1930s. Cattle, however, took an unexpected turn. With forced collectivization and the wholesale acquisition of land and cattle came the massive slaughter of cattle by angry peasants - that's right, they would rather kill off their flocks than see them serve a greater purpose - such that whatever recovery in the area of cattle heads happened in the 1920s was both erased and reversed. Cattle head counts did not reach pre-revolution numbers until the 1960s, such was the catastrophe at hand.

Right, regarding cattle I saw the same graphs - stagnation until 1960-s, then growth, and massive fall in late 1980-s

Spoiler :

According to this graph, in 2005 we were below this level too. Catastrophe is probably only beginning.

Yet starvation and shortage in that time is held to be a communist-orchestrated event...

Those damned communists managed to orchestrate also several bad famines in the beginning of XX century.

 

[Tycho]

Those damned communists managed to orchestrate also several bad famines in the beginning of XX century.

True. I've heard stories about how some of them turned to cannibalism in the Ukraine to try and survive.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

And I've heard stories about how the moon landings were filmed in a studio in the Sonoran. Doesn't mean they're true.

 

[fing0lfin]

And I've heard stories about how the moon landings were filmed in a studio in the Sonoran. Doesn't mean they're true.

So you say that such famines did not happen ?

 

[Lord Baal]

So you say that such famines did not happen ?

I think he's more questioning the veracity of rumours. I've also heard similar rumours, but never seen actual evidence of cannibalism in the Ukraine at this time. I'm not saying it didn't take place, merely that I've never come across any concrete evidence (I've also never cared enough to look into it that deeply). We know for a fact that cannibalism took place in Leningrad during WWII, and also happened in isolated places along the Eastern Front - the novel Hannibal Rising is based on this - but I don't know about during the Ukrainian famine.

 

[Tycho]

And I've heard stories about how the moon landings were filmed in a studio in the Sonoran. Doesn't mean they're true.

Besides the lack of evidence on the cannibalism aspect, due to collectivization of the farms by Stalin's orders most of the grain in the particular famine of 1932-33 had been taken away and sold on the western markets in an effort to break the collective will of the Ukrainian people while on ongoing purge of the intellectual community and Communist party within the country took plenty more. Overall, ten million people died as a result of that single famine, not to mention the famines of the early twenties and later forties.

Was Ukraine really better off under communist rule then?

 

[Ajidica]

Not particularly, but then you have to ask yourself: who would it have been better off under?

 

[red_elk]

Besides the lack of evidence on the cannibalism aspect, due to collectivization of the farms by Stalin's orders most of the grain in the particular famine of 1932-33 had been taken away and sold on the western markets in an effort to break the collective will of the Ukrainian people while on ongoing purge of the intellectual community and Communist party within the country took plenty more. Overall, ten million people died as a result of that single famine, not to mention the famines of the early twenties and later forties.

Famines of 1932-1933 in USSR have nothing to do with "breaking the will of the Ukrainian people". Because in the first place, Ukrainians was not the ethnic group which suffered the most from famines. The main reason of famines was bad harvest of 1932, which was worsened by awful state of Soviet agricultural sector, inherited from Russian Empire and also by ongoing collectivization reform, methods of which were also far from perfect.

What I meant by famines in the beginning of XX century "orchestrated by communists" were several mass famines in the period of 1870-1913. Collectivization, despite its obvious flaws, was actually the reform which increased effectiveness of Soviet agriculture and stopped famines in Russia/USSR which happened regularly before it.

Was Ukraine really better off under communist rule then?

Comparing to czarist rule, definitely yes.

 

[fing0lfin]

he main reason of famines was bad harvest of 1932, which was worsened by awful state of Soviet agricultural sector, inherited from Russian Empire and also by ongoing collectivization reform, methods of which were also far from perfect.

Still i think that you can't close your eyes for the "orchestrated by communists" events which led to the famine in Ukraine.

 

[Traitorfish]

Besides the lack of evidence on the cannibalism aspect, due to collectivization of the farms by Stalin's orders most of the grain in the particular famine of 1932-33 had been taken away and sold on the western markets in an effort to break the collective will of the Ukrainian people while on ongoing purge of the intellectual community and Communist party within the country took plenty more. Overall, ten million people died as a result of that single famine, not to mention the famines of the early twenties and later forties.

Was Ukraine really better off under communist rule then?

The contradiction in terms represented by this phrase gives you a clue as to exactly what was wrong in the Ukraine at that time.

 

[red_elk]

Still i think that you can't close your eyes for the "orchestrated by communists" events which led to the famine in Ukraine.

I'm not closing my eyes on any events which led to famine in Ukraine, North Caucasus, North Kazakhstan, Volga region of RSFSR, South Ural, West Siberia and Belorussia in 1932.

Mismanagement of authorities indeed worsened conditions in some cases. Claim that it was purposedly "orchestrated" by Stalin to kill several millions of people in his own country (basically to kill food production source and base for industrial growth) is an old Cold War propaganda myth.

 

[fing0lfin]

Claim that it was purposedly "orchestrated" by Stalin to kill several millions of people in his own country

Such claims are pretty popular and have some basis so i think it's disputable whether it is a myth.(talking about Ukraine mainly).

 

[red_elk]

Such claims are pretty popular and have some basis so i think it's disputable whether it is a myth.(talking about Ukraine mainly).

Just as the claims that moon landing was faked.
Popularity of claim is not and has never been a measure of correctness, and accusation in genocide must be thoroughly proven.
As far as I know, "genocide interpretation" is not supported in mainstream historiography, but it's pretty popular in pop history due to political and ideological motives.
If you have sources which claim otherwise, provide them. On my side, I can give you some articles to read, if you are interested.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

due to collectivization of the farms by Stalin's orders most of the grain in the particular famine of 1932-33 had been taken away and sold on the western markets

How in any way are the two linked?

in an effort to break the collective will of the Ukrainian people

Actually the grain was sold abroad in order build up foreign currency reserves.

while on ongoing purge of the intellectual community and Communist party within the country took plenty more

Ongoing? The first elements of what you might call a purge didn't even begin until at least 1935, and "The" Purges didn't until 1937. The famine in question was in 1931-1932, which is even before the second forced collectivization campaign.

. Overall, ten million people died as a result of that single famine, not to mention the famines of the early twenties and later forties.

Now that is a number which requires a good citation.

 

[fing0lfin]

Just as the claims that moon landing was faked.
Popularity of claim is not and has never been a measure of correctness, and accusation in genocide must be thoroughly proven.
As far as I know, "genocide interpretation" is not supported in mainstream historiography, but it's pretty popular in pop history due to political and ideological motives.
If you have sources which claim otherwise, provide them. On my side, I can give you some articles to read, if you are interested.

I don't think that the moon landings are good comparisson. I have read articels "on both side" and the only think i say is that this topic is still a subject of a debate. Also you are certainly informed that the soviet government denied for many years that such famines ever occured...

 

[Lone Wolf]

I always saw the government's responsibility for the Ukrainian famine of 1930's and the Irish famine of 1840's as being fairly similar. IMO neither the British, nor the Soviets actually commited genocide, neither did they conscionously "orchestrate" anything, but they were still responsilbe in a very large part.