Russia Invades Ukraine

[Henri Christophe]

I have to ask, are you looking at a printed encyclopedia?

I used all sources I can. I watch Television, watch Youtube and yes, I have a printed encyclopedia.

 

[r16]

ı sniff a challenge to what ı said ? This place is Leftist and the proof is simple . Donald Trump , the Lizardgod , Orange Messiah and (very much invented by r16) BSS has said Americans should paint Chinese stars on their planes , go bomb Russians and watch the fun from the distance . If in this 24 hours , there are more than 10 people who approve this very brilliant Trump idea , the place is not Leftist . Also useful to check how many people would like to troll me .

 

[Nanuk]

I used all sources I can. I watch Television, watch Youtube and yes, I have a printed encyclopedia.

I think he was referring to the current state of Russian military forces. They are chaotically formed, lacking strong logistical support, low in morale, heavily bolstered by militia and PMC forces, and have no idea what it is they're doing. This is a very poorly managed military, and in their current state, are no match for NATO, and could potentially be defeated by Ukraine in the near future, but definitely by a popular rebellion in the long term if they do manage to conquer the country. Putin has meddled with the military in such a way that he has severely weakened Russia's conventional forces, and even the foreign intelligence services. It reminds me of how poorly prepared Russia's forces were in Chechnya due to the fall of the USSR, and also the USSR in the early months of the Nazi invasion, since Stalin purged Russia's military and intelligence services so heavily. I have to wonder how much purging Putin did.

 

[Zardnaar]

Russia don't will lose this war, just look the might of his army.
Can took some years of war, but Ukraine can't win without NATO directly support.

Try looking at logistics.

Russia might eventually win on the battlefield but they've lost overall.

Russian advance has slowed to a crawl. Even if they win then what?

 

[Nanuk]

It should be noted that unless Russia gets logistical support from China or another manufacturing giant, they will mostly likely be unable to maintain advanced weaponry in the field for much longer, and may have to mobilize their reserve stocks which are very outdated.

 

[Henri Christophe]

I think he was referring to the current state of Russian military forces. They are chaotically formed, lacking strong logistical support, low in morale, heavily bolstered by militia and PMC forces, and have no idea what it is they're doing. This is a very poorly managed military, and in their current state, are no match for NATO, and could potentially be defeated by Ukraine in the near future, but definitely by a popular rebellion in the long term if they do manage to conquer the country. Putin has meddled with the military in such a way that he has severely weakened Russia's conventional forces, and even the foreign intelligence services. It reminds me of how poorly prepared Russia's forces were in Chechnya due to the fall of the USSR, and also the USSR in the early months of the Nazi invasion, since Stalin purged Russia's military and intelligence services so heavily. I have to wonder how much purging Putin did.

I don't believe Russia's army is a crap. Putin isn't the kind of guy who will enter in a war to lose, he knows how powerfull he is. Maybe Ukranian resistance will make this war took for years, but it isn't a Blitzkrieg. If Putin wants a Blitzkrieg he should use his Atomic Arsenal . What he didn't use.
Moderator Action: Please stop all talk that advocates or encourages the use of nuclear weapons. They are terrible devices. Birdjaguar

It should be noted that unless Russia gets logistical support from China or another manufacturing giant, they will mostly likely be unable to maintain advanced weaponry in the field for much longer, and may have to mobilize their reserve stocks which are very outdated.

I believe China don't will help Russia that much, maybe just buying Russian's stuffs. But send weaponry is impossible.

 

[Akka]

This "we're the good guys, they're the bad guys" is just rinse and repeat of the same cycle of wars for eternity. You're not standing on any new, special ground. What you're saying has been said and done for thousands of years. And your way of trying to interpret between the lines what someone is bluntly saying is analyzing a shallow pool of water in great depth. You're doing nothing more than saying "sucks to be born Russian, I guess."

Or I'm saying that it's possible to reconcile if BOTH want it, but that Russia has to also do its part while your entire post is about how everything seems to be up to "the West".

Considering the performance of the Russian army *that* was apparently not the problem, they waved the nuclear card after only two days of war - in Cold War terms that signifies the defeat of your conventional forces.

Putin waved the nuclear card even before the invasion actually.

 

[Gorbles]

ı sniff a challenge to what ı said ? This place is Leftist and the proof is simple . Donald Trump , the Lizardgod , Orange Messiah and (very much invented by r16) BSS has said Americans should paint Chinese stars on their planes , go bomb Russians and watch the fun from the distance . If in this 24 hours , there are more than 10 people who approve this very brilliant Trump idea , the place is not Leftist . Also useful to check how many people would like to troll me .

Buddy, ten is about the number of regularly-active posters. You need to calibrate your stats downwards.

Your examples too. You don't have to be leftist to reject Trump's "genius"

 

[red_elk]

This "we're the good guys, they're the bad guys" is just rinse and repeat of the same cycle of wars for eternity.

But it's true, we are the good guys and they are the bad guys.

 

[JPetroski]

I don't believe Russia's army is a crap. Putin isn't the kind of guy who will enter in a war to lose, he knows how powerfull he is. Maybe Ukranian resistance will make this war took for years, but it isn't a Blitzkrieg. If Putin wants a Blitzkrieg he should use his Atomic Arsenal . What he didn't use.

This is what a war looks like when the armed forces are powerful. Can't wait to see a future episode of... whatever this is.

 

[Nanuk]

Or I'm saying that it's possible to reconcile if BOTH want it, but that Russia has to also do its part while your entire post is about how everything seems to be up to "the West".

Putin waved the nuclear card even before the invasion actually.

Fair points. I think with all the back and forth going on in this thread, I am prone to misinterpreting the intent behind a post. But yes, I agree that not everything is up to the West. I just wanted to highlight areas where the West is falling short on. We worked very hard and got past our inhibitions when we turned West Germany into an ally, and I wonder if we could've done more to do the same with Russia in the 90's. I think we rested on our laurels and thought Yeltsin was a sign of what would follow. Had NATO seen the coming of Putin, I would hope they would've done more to dissuade Russian citizens from supporting him in the beginning.

 

[Henri Christophe]

But it's true, we are the good guys and they are the bad guys.

There is no good guys in a war.
Social Media want to show Putin as the pure Evil who wake up one day and decide to go war at Ukrain. But it isn't true. This war started in 2014 when a coup happens. A coup against a democratic elected president helped by Western powers.

And NATO is a threat to Russia, NATO born to be a threat to Russia and untill today still expanding their boarders in direction to Russia.
If NATO compromize to stop expand his boarders to the east, maybe this war isn't happening just now.

 

[JPetroski]

I think the main goal of the Russian forces is to avoid a repeat of this situation:


View attachment 621901

Sturs of Mosul by American troops 2016-17.

They've clearly changed goals then.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think the main goal of the Russian forces is to avoid a repeat of this situation:


View attachment 621901

Sturs of Mosul by American troops 2016-17.

And it's under the control of Iraq. Hell look at Aleppo bombing by Russia.

You also neglect why they bombed it. No one likes USIS even Russia.

Here's the reality. Ukraine stops fighting no more Ukraine. Russia stops fighting no more war.

Russia has the power to invade Ukraine the west has the power to sanction them.

Have fun being a pariah even if you win eventually you're excluded from things like the Olympics, sanctions etc.

Back to the 90's cone June or so......p

 

[Zardnaar]

Let's look at the end results.

Of course, Russian troops hit civilians. This is undeniable. However, how can you explain the placement of Ukrainian anti-aircraft artillery in playgrounds? Severodonetsk (Ukraine-occupied territory of the DPR):

View attachment 621902

How dare they defend their cities!!!

You keep mentioning DPR. It's still recognized as Ukrainian territory.

 

[Henri Christophe]

What is DPR?

 

[Nanuk]

There is no good guys in a war

I want to include what JPetroski said, as to my response to you.

This is what a war looks like when the armed forces are powerful. Can't wait to see a future episode of... whatever this is.

One of the greatest logistical endeavors of a military force, several allied nations with a strong NCO and officer corps which were not handcuffed by politics, superior technology, sufficient numbers, a long diplomatic campaign that gave everyone including the service members a clear moral imperative to the conflict, backing of the UN, regional nations united against a common foe.

"Humanity has survived one of the most just wars ever fought." - Radio Moscow, last day of the Gulf War

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjghsmHsbL2AhWhj4kEHS2gB-sQFnoECHsQAQ&url=https://community.apan.org/cfs-file/__key/docpreview-s/00-00-00-96-94/2005_2D00_05_2D00_25-Desert-Storm_2D00_The-Soviet-View-_2800_Villahermosa-and-Glantz_2900_.pdf&usg=AOvVaw34HMV7VyoTYSb3aZ2QTCI3

Such was a preview of a world order where both the US and USSR worked together or at least did not have a tit-for-tat battle for supremacy. Unfortunately, it was short-lived. We sometimes forget that our nations were allies in WW2.

In conclusion, the whole "good" vs "bad" guy is sophomoric, but there is definitely a just an unjust cause. Putin's cause is unjust. He tried to create a puppet state with Ukraine, and then when a popular uprising overthrew said puppet and a democratic process created a western-friendly government, Putin decided it was time for war and annexations. Let us not forget the "little green men" arriving in Ukrainian airports as civilians, putting on their uniforms that had no national flag markers, and taking over airports allowing for Russian conventional forces to pour into Crimea. Saddam did similar things with Kuwait. Putin saying there was popular support for Russian annexation from Crimea and Russian involvement in Donbas holds no water, considering he has lied about virtually everything leading up to today. "There will be no invasion!" followed by "it's not an invasion, it's an operation!" This is like the Kim Dynasty saying that 101% of the population supports him. The dead rising up to say "you win!"

If you want an exercise into trying to see if this is a just war, then ask yourself would you call Banana Republics just? Would you call the 1953 Iranian Coup just? Would you call the 2003 Iraq War just? If you find yourself regularly siding with one particular faction, then you should examine your bias.

 

[JPetroski]

At playgrounds? Oh well. Let's see what you say when your children are under fire from opposing sides.

If you'd like, we could play "find the AA gun" in row after row of apartment buildings, or in schools, or in hospitals, or in Holocaust memorials, or in single family homes, or subways, or on and on and on.

You are quite right though, "if only they knew when they were conquered..."

 

[Zardnaar]

What is DPR?

Russian puppet regime carved out of Ukraines land.

A big clue is the title. Anything with People's Republic in the title is suspicious.

 

[r16]

Buddy, ten is about the number of regularly-active posters. You need to calibrate your stats downwards.

Your examples too. You don't have to be leftist to reject Trump's "genius"

when blogs are full of people posting that Russian prisoners must be tortured and non-prisoners must be killed in all ways possible , it might be that you might be out of "their" interest zone as of now . Perhaps you will be used as a training aid . Mind you , am not trying to insult you but Special Forces tend to have access to a lot of animals to wound and study basic surgery and the like , might be more represantative . Totally possible that you apply higher standarts but to a Right as ı would use it , you are Left . Even the Rightest person on this forum would still be Left to those guys .