Russia SVN/UHV clarifications/help

[outofthebox]

Hi so i went for Russia normal/emperor.

Got a couple of questions regarding UHVs.

1) I made a railroad from Moscow to Nelkan (the coastal city on the gem near the gold far east). It didnt show as completed for the transsiberian railroad. Am I missing something?

2) Is vassalizing the only way to get 5 Friendly communists buddies? I tried to have ultra good relations with non vassals, but they never went above pleased.

and 3) To those who have succeeded the 3 UHVs, whats your strategy (what do you do first, which UHV to go for frist etc)?

and 4) Do you have general tips for Russia? Like where to build lumbermills/windmills? or farms or workshops? I still dont realy know what improvement i should build on what tile! I tend to mix 2-3 cottages + 2-3 farms per city and rest is Mine/lumber/workshop/windmill as needed for production.

Thanks for all help!

 

[Leoreth]

Don't know where Nelkan is - if you're on a recent enough revision, the game should show which tiles are considered Siberian, you need a coastal city there (at the Pacific, not the Arctic Sea).

The goal is certainly slanted towards vassalization, but it's possible for certain backwards civs to get them friendly, too: I think it's easier to vassalize those who you can't get friendly with gifts alone.

 

[artyom]

my recent success with russia on emperor/marathon on 600 AD svn involved settling 6 cities asap west of Moscow. found talinn(west of novgorod), tver (east of novgorod) and lvov (2 tiles west of kiev), all other cities at normal locations. as for improvements, I'd recommend making farms/windmills mostly with the exception of novgorod area where you should make 90% cottages and kazan where you should make 50% cottages and vologda where you also make 50% cottages and everywhere else make windmills/farms and a few watermills in siberia.
try to get like a good force of knights like 10 to fight the mongol spawned troops and then invade iran. in iran, keep samarkand and the coastal city (forgot what its called), these 2 cities are very important in that they provide lots of precious happy resources. at 1500 ad iran spawns but they will not flip those two cities. I'd recommend razing or capturing them asap because if you let them live, 300 years later their culture will take your precious resources.
Try not to settle siberia too much(or not at all) until you discover astronomy which should be around 1550-1650. Then settle like crazy. keep making farms/windmills in siberia. civics should be like republic/capitalism/representation/free market and later free religion. Switch to communism after you get the 1920's goal. if you switch earlier you risk not getting the tech in time.
you should be able to settle all of historic russia and more and earlier than it was historically and still get the 1920's achievement. make sure to get liberalism like by 1550, if you do then it means your doing everything right. get like 10-11 cities asap before 1300 and sit with them until astronomy. after astronomy tech to democracy and then corporation and then get cossacks and then get electricity for your super unique awesome research center and then for manhatten project and then apollo.
theres many ways to go about it though, so you may find something that works better for you.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

1. Trade with China

2. Do not found any city east of Moscow before you've prepared for the Mongols

3. No Cottages

See the link in my signature for details.

 

[artyom]

also, not sure if people are aware, but the best way to make settlers is to have a size 6 city and then switch from whatever your building to a settler and whipping him. RFC has very fast growth mechanics so whipping is preferred especially at early stages of game when your cities dont have buildings which would increase the benefit from working on more tiles (which probably dont even have improvements). so try to never actually build settlers: always whip them.

I prefer talinn+tver over one novgorod because you get 2 good economy/food cities instead of just one. and novgorod wont be able to build a levee later on but talinn and tver would.

@Ionlysignin, have you tried your corporate russia strat on recent SVN version on marathon/emperor 600 AD? to be honest, i doubt it would work

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I prefer talinn+tver over one novgorod because you get 2 good economy/food cities instead of just one. and novgorod wont be able to build a levee later on but talinn and tver would.

If you plan on having more than 10 cities (as you must with Russia), you want as few cities as possible due to Research penalties with City numbers.

Also, any city further west of Novgorod will limit the impact of your UP against Germany (it's very hard to get your Culture past Koenigsberg). I also do not chop the Forests west of Novgorod & Kiev. The general idea is you want enemy (German and Viking usually) units to take as many turns (10 turns means they will never arrive) as possible travelling through Russia.

Finally, by the time you get Levees (Steam Power), you should have already made all your game-winning moves. As Russia you should have achieved world domination by 1800.

@Ionlysignin, have you tried your corporate russia strat on recent SVN version on marathon/emperor 600 AD? to be honest, i doubt it would work

I almost never play on 600 AD because I hate mega-Spain (Phillip pisses me off - I sometimes play England/France for the sole purpose of beating the sh!t out of him). I agree 600 AD is harder for Russia since China will be less advanced, while the Europeans will be more advanced, so you have weaker allies and stronger rivals.

The later versions have more Corporations. The issue however is that the amount of Fur resources in Russia is vastly underrepresented - just compare it to the obscene amount of Fur in Canada.

There is also the problem of Great Depression with Free Market - a change which I strongly proposed, precisely to undermine the invincible Free Market - Specialist combo, so as to make things more challenging. However, the real problem is with the current algorithms for Great Depression, which ignores Commerce output from Specialists AND Corporations. I consider it a bug of the game to be fixed soon, not a fault in my strategy.

Other than that I don't see any problems really.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Also, you don't need to switch to State Property ever to win UHV. Supreme Council works too, and is much better for your economy.

btw Leoreth is about to fix State Property too, to make it have diminished (instead of nonexistent) Corporations effects.

 

[artyom]

If you plan on having more than 10 cities (as you must with Russia), you want as few cities as possible due to Research penalties with City numbers.

true, but the early benefit may outweigh the cost that is imposed later on in the game. by quickly making like 7 cities and all west of moscow before the mongol age, your looking at like 600 years of profiting from that advantage. those 7 are better than your 5, both economically and for production (and historically: after all, we all try to sorta mimic history while winning the game, otherwise why would you ever want to found crappy cities with 4 pop max when your trying to get the UHV's?).

Also, any city further west of Novgorod will limit the impact of your UP against Germany

It could happen, but had you founded more cities such as talinn and Lvov you'd have more production to face the germans. also, last few games the russian UP seemed to not work on some enemies at different times. either the enemy had a medic in a stack of 20, or it just didnt work not matter how far in the enemy went. so i would advise to chop every tree and bush you find because it would make you stronger

I almost never play on 600 AD because I hate mega-Spain

nothing mega about it. it expands, has the worst techs in europe, then collapses. maybe you havent played 600 in a while?

Also, you don't need to switch to State Property ever to win UHV. Supreme Council works too, and is much better for your economy.

i tested representation vs supreme council late game as russia and representation was better by a couple hunder rubles per turn (had research centers and stat of liberty). or did you mean supereme council/free market is better than representation/state property?

 

[iOnlySignIn]

those 7 are better than your 5, both economically and for production

7 cities may not be better than 5 in terms of Tech, when you consider
(1) City/Civic Maintenance costs
(2) Your 7 cities will have worse location and/or more overlap than my 5 cities

And while 7 cities are usually better than 5 in terms of Production, IMO the point of the Russian UP is so that you only need to build a minimum number of Units.

Also, if you build your cities after Astronomy, you get many more free Buildings in them, most notably Forges, Harbors, and Aqueducts. England even gets free Markets. If you build those cities before Astronomy, you'd have to waste Hammers on those basic infrastructures instead.

In the end it depends on style. Russia in my style relies mostly on diplomacy & UP for early defense, with a minimum, almost nonexistent army. Given that, I found more than 5 cities to be a liability as it gives more targets for the Mongols to attack. With fewer cities I can wear them out using only a skeleton crew, namely 3~5 Knights, 4 Pikes, and 4 Longbows (note: that's my entire army - my cities build Observatories and Universities instead of units).

did you mean supereme council/free market is better than representation/state property?

Yes. Representation is not needed after you've gained (near) absolute tech lead. Well, perhaps America still needs it because there might be some Old World superpower (England or Russia). But as Russia you should have eliminated/crippled all your major rivals by the time you reach Communism.

 

[strijder20]

I almost never play on 600 AD because I hate mega-Spain (Phillip pisses me off - I sometimes play England/France for the sole purpose of beating the sh!t out of him). I agree 600 AD is harder for Russia since China will be less advanced, while the Europeans will be more advanced, so you have weaker allies and stronger rivals.

Can you explain how 600 AD gives Spain more chance to get the conquerors and boosts the European tech rate?

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Can you explain how 600 AD gives Spain more chance to get the conquerors and boosts the European tech rate?

Re: Spain:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11446391&postcount=843

3000BC (as opposed to 600AD) has the same effect as Epic (as opposed to Normal speed). It amplifies the advantage of Tech, while diminishes the advantage of fast Units (Spanish UP).

As for Europeans having better tech on 600 AD, it's due to more obvious reasons:

(1) Better city sites. France for example gets Marseilles, which it never gets on 3000 BC. Many good Indie cities (Rome, Constantinople) get razed/are not founded on 3000 BC (huge waves of Barbs in 3th~5th centuries). Simply put, the 600 AD map of Europe is better because more of it (Marseilles, Venice, Constatinople being the most important) are designed by Human instead of AI (AI will found Lyon and Sparta instead).

(2) On 3000 BC, Apostolic Palace are often not built till after 1200, greatly slowing down both Catholic and (potentially) Orthodox civs (i.e. ALL European civs).

(3) On 3000 BC Europe is much more likely to be Religiously divided - Buddhism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, you name it. This leads to more wars and less Trade. I complained about this but the other guys shot me down saying that some Roman Emperors were actually Zoroastrian.

(4) On 600 AD Spain and France start with much less units. On 3000 BC they will both flip tons of Barb Swords/Axes (often more than 10 on Emperor) as well as possible Roman units. This both slows down their Tech directly (Unit Cost) and encourages War (since AI declare probability is dependent on its Power rating).

(5) 600 AD Byzantium starts with a HUGE amount of Tech (and is quite happy to trade them away). Calendar, Drama, Literature, you name it. Compare it with a 3000 BC start where Greece/Rome/Byzantium tech like Slowpokes due to Barbs (again, worse on Emperor) and closely packed crap cities.

(6) Tech advantage is relative in this game, especially due to China's UP. 3000 BC China is almost always stronger than 600 AD China (same with Epic China > Normal China) because their UP snowballs with time. When I load Epic/Emperor 3000 BC Euro starts I sometimes see AI China found Catholicism. Also, on 3000 BC it's very hard for me to tech ahead of China until late Renaissance (Economics, Rifling), but on 600 AD it's doable in early Renaissance (Astronomy, Banking).

Of course, there are other reasons, but these are the most major and most obvious ones that come to my mind at the moment.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Hi so i went for Russia normal/emperor.

Got a couple of questions regarding UHVs.

1) I made a railroad from Moscow to Nelkan (the coastal city on the gem near the gold far east). It didnt show as completed for the transsiberian railroad. Am I missing something?

2) Is vassalizing the only way to get 5 Friendly communists buddies? I tried to have ultra good relations with non vassals, but they never went above pleased.

and 3) To those who have succeeded the 3 UHVs, whats your strategy (what do you do first, which UHV to go for frist etc)?

and 4) Do you have general tips for Russia? Like where to build lumbermills/windmills? or farms or workshops? I still dont realy know what improvement i should build on what tile! I tend to mix 2-3 cottages + 2-3 farms per city and rest is Mine/lumber/workshop/windmill as needed for production.

Thanks for all help!

Hi, outofthebox.

Think outside of the box. Build up your espionage points for your non-vassal targets, and station spies in their cities.
When you've built up about 300-700 points, trade them Communism & use your -50% discounted spy mission to force switch them to State Property. I hope that helps.

 

[Leoreth]

I think his problem is more with getting them to friendly. I think it's smart to avoid vassalizing backwards civs like the Native Americans or Mali because they're easy to get to friendly without it.

 

[artyom]

Hi, outofthebox.

Think outside of the box. Build up your espionage points for your non-vassal targets, and station spies in their cities.
When you've built up about 300-700 points, trade them Communism & use your -50% discounted spy mission to force switch them to State Property. I hope that helps.

thinking outside of the box isnt the same as actually playing and then thinking. just because someone is communist just like you doesnt mean that they will be friendly. good luck getting somebody friendly just because you make them switch a couple civics

 

[outofthebox]

Well all 5 of my vassals were friendly. that was ultra easy. they all switched to state property but the UHV didnt update ( well its says 5/5 communsits vassals on the information screen but it still said 1/3 UHV even after 1950) even after 1950, played to 1955.

The railroad to Siberian port has never worked for me on 3 different attempts. I tried Nelkan on the gem near gold. its a "Siberian" tile and coastal tile. Failed

I tried Chongjin which is "Korean" city i conquered which is coastal and has Siberia on it. Didnt work.

I tried a 3rd city, cant remember the name.

I am trying a new game atm. I will settle 3-4 coastal cities in Siberia all connected to see if it works at all

 

[Leoreth]

Could you upload a save where it failed?

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

thinking outside of the box isnt the same as actually playing and then thinking. just because someone is communist just like you doesnt mean that they will be friendly. good luck getting somebody friendly just because you make them switch a couple civics

...Okay?

Well, let's see...

+4 modifier from Trade relations
+1/2 modifier from trading them military resources (Iron/Horse)
+1 modifier from gifting them free techs
+(variable) from civics
+(variable) from shared war
+(variable) from Defensive Pact
(religion modifiers or penalties that be eliminated by switching
to Secularism or forcing them to switch to Secularism)
Studying which AIs are likely to hit friendly with you
(Pacal II is a good choice and Monty is obviously not)

So are you satisfied? Or are you done being sarcastic,
picking at my post and not actually offering any help?

 

[artyom]

you make it sound too easy, when its not. theres no help to offer because Ionlysignin has already said that the solution to UHV# 3 is vassalage.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

It's not easy, but neither is getting 5 vassals all of the time.
That's why that's there to fill in the 1 or 2 blanks for the few non-vassals you
need to convert to Communism & Friendly.

 

[outofthebox]

Here is todays save.

1920 railraod all the way from Moscow to The north Korean city. Didnt update the uhv condition on the info screen.

Btw I am still experimenting with cities as Russia. Feel free to check it out and comment! That´s all the fun with a community.

Also I tend to mix a few cottages for most of my cities to help get the tech/trade up in early/mid game to catch up on tech and to avoid getting bankrupt when I settle all my Siberian cities in 1700. Maybe I am doing it wrong?