Russia's Unique Trait ISN'T Russian Winter?

[Dragonflow]

From our loved wikipedia :

The invasion of the Soviet Union in Operation Barbarossa signalled an enormous change in German tank development. In July 1941 36 Panzer and motorized infantry divisions were assigned to the invasion fielding over 3000 AFV's. In June 1941, these tanks first encountered the Soviet T-34 and the German tanks were outclassed in every aspect of battle performance.

Something is not right here...

That's actually not that strange. The early Panzer (I-III) were generally worse than Allied tanks, while the T-34 was a beast on the battlefield. It's the later Panzers that were superior to the allied tank, namely Panzer V Panthers and the Tiger-series. The problem was that both Panthers and Tiger were far to expensive compared to T-34 or Shermans, this resulted in allied numerical superiority.

 

[deanej]

And you are... a representative of humankind?

And World War II buffs are? I admit, the only reason I know of Panzers first is because of civ4.

General knowledge is not enough when you're talking about Americans. The US history curriculum cares only for Pearl Harbor, D-Day, and the pacific front, with perhaps a mention of the western front before Pearl Harbor or even North Africa if you're being detailed.

 

[EmpireOfCats]

General knowledge is not enough when you're talking about Americans. The US history curriculum cares only for Pearl Harbor, D-Day, and the pacific front, with perhaps a mention of the western front before Pearl Harbor or even North Africa if you're being detailed.

At the risk of having the moderators beat me with rubber hoses again -- we've come to the conclusion in other threads that nobody knows much about other people's history anywhere. And for good reason: You only have a few hours a week during school (if that much), and it makes more sense to you teach your own history before you move off to some far-away place. For instance, at the time of the American Civil War, Bismarck was doing some really interesting stuff in what was to become Germany. If they're lucky, Germans will have had something about the war in English class, but usually not in history. And those are the Germans who go to the Gymnasium, the elite track, not the Hauptschule, where learning to write error-free is considered a worthy goal.

So, it's not only Americans.

 

[Schuesseled]

And World War II buffs are? I admit, the only reason I know of Panzers first is because of civ4.

General knowledge is not enough when you're talking about Americans. The US history curriculum cares only for Pearl Harbor, D-Day, and the pacific front, with perhaps a mention of the western front before Pearl Harbor or even North Africa if you're being detailed.

Don't people read books or only listen to the cirriculum in school. You don't need to be an expert on WW2 to know what a panzer is. Or maybe i've been out of the loop for a while, maybe someone should mention these need to know things on facebook, or mememe.com or whatever junk the kids are surfing today.

 

[PeterWimsey]

T-34's aren't as well known as "Panzers" in the US (or, I suspect, in most of Europe), except among people who are wargamers, are WWII buffs, or who have relatives who fought against the USSR in WWII.

However, they are better known than many other UUs, such as, say cataphracts.

Assessing which tanks were "best" is pretty complicated, as there's usually not one answer. Although the T-34 was pretty clearly the best tank in '41 (in terms of speed, armor protection, weaponry, *and* cross-country performance), and arguably the best tank in '42.

Which is the time in which Germany had its greatest success in fighting the USSR, ironically.

The reason for this, of course, is because the German army had a much better doctrine (or system) for fighting with tanks than anyone else did, and they were able to either neutralize T-34s with AT guns or else go around them, shoot up their fuel trucks, and wait for them to run out of gas.

The Tiger tank was developed to fight the T-34; it had enough armor in front to stop a T-34's shell from any distance, and a very powerful gun that could destroy a T-34 from the front at long distance. It was also mechanically unreliable, weighed twice as much as a T-34, and slow and expensive to produce. (The Germans produced fewer than 1500 Tigers; there were 57,000 T-34s produced).

 

[Me,myself,and,I]

The Russian winter is overrated, Napoleon and Hitler could easily have negated the effects of the winter, but they underestimated the size of Russia. Europeans live in small crowded countries (In geographic terms) you can drive from Paris to Berlin in a day, but in Russia and America your dealing with massive differences, one state on average is the size of a European country. The French and Germans were defeated because they weren't ready for a winter war. Heck Napoleon thought he could hit Moscow and then be in saint Petersburg by fall of the year he invaded.

 

[timtofly]

The invasion of the Soviet Union in Operation Barbarossa signalled an enormous change in German tank development. In July 1941 36 Panzer and motorized infantry divisions were assigned to the invasion fielding over 3000 AFV's. In June 1941, these tanks first encountered the Soviet T-34 and the German tanks were outclassed in every aspect of battle performance.

Something is not right here...

Obviously the Germans did not know what a T-34 was either.

Out of the masses of people there are few who consider history as being relevant to everday "existence" thus the axiom "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

 

[deanej]

The Russian winter is overrated, Napoleon and Hitler could easily have negated the effects of the winter, but they underestimated the size of Russia. Europeans live in small crowded countries (In geographic terms) you can drive from Paris to Berlin in a day, but in Russia and America your dealing with massive differences, one state on average is the size of a European country. The French and Germans were defeated because they weren't ready for a winter war. Heck Napoleon thought he could hit Moscow and then be in saint Petersburg by fall of the year he invaded.

Not to mention the fact that Napoleon invaded in the middle of the Little Ice Age and Hitler hugely mismanaged the Eastern front.

 

[Stalingrad]

no offense im reading thigns that are completely off topic to the point of Russia's unique ability, whas is Siberian Riches? If no one knows thats ok i can't find anything on that, I would really like to know since i mained Russia-Stalin obviously in Civ 4, if anyone could englihten me then thanx, and by the way what does it mean that Russia emphasizes city expansion? do they get a bonus in terms of expanding the size of their cities? anyone could clarify would be appreciated

 

[Mustakrakish]

Spoiler :

The T-34 was a medium tank which evolved from a series of pre-war Russian light tanks, which were designed for very high speed (53mph with tracks, and over 60mph in good roads without tracks!!) and long travel range, features which made them a formidable weapon for fast advances very deep into enemy territory, but they severely lacked firepower and armor, so they were not suitable as main battle tanks. Some modern wheeled military vehicles armed with powerful anti tank missiles and machine guns can be regarded as more successful descendants of this type of fighting vehicle.

As a result of the need for an all-purpose main battle tank, the T-34 was developed as a medium tank descendant of those fast light tanks, gradually evolving from their superb technical design, but designed to be a capable main battle tank. The T-34 was lower in height (8ft) than German and American tanks, which was better in using the terrain for taking cover and make it a smaller target to hit. It had sloped armor in both the front and side hull and the turret, which made it harder to penetrate, and of course it had a powerful 76mm gun, which was then a large caliber, and sufficiently thick armor. During World War 2 the gun of the T-34 was upgraded to a more powerful long-barrel 76mm gun and later to 85mm gun, to keep up with the advances in German tank guns and armor.

Initial production and deployment of the T-34 was before the German invasion of Russia. Small numbers of T-34 tanks participated in a series of border battles between Russian and Japanese forces in the far East in early 1941, just three months before the German invasion to Russia.

Both the new T-34 tank and Zhukov, who was later Russia's top military commander in World War 2, made their impressive early debut there, in the far East. Both were noticed and reported by the Japanese, but the Germans ignored those reports and were therefore shocked when they met the first T-34 tanks in combat later that year when they invaded Russia. The Germans so appreciated the performance of the T-34 that when the German military discussed the development of their next tank, the Panther, one of the suggested designs was simply a German copy of the T-34.

There were still small numbers of the new T-34 when the invasion began, and the rapid German advancement so deep into Russia, as far as Moscow, forced the Russian industry, which already lost countless factories, to an unprecedented operation of literally moving its entire remaining military industry factories over 1000 miles further East, to Siberia, to avoid losing it to the advancing Germans.

 

[civ_king]

For some reason Germany seems like Microsoft and USSR seems like Apple. Microsofts new battle strategy is "copy Apple"

 

[wolf_brother]

And you are... a representative of humankind?

And World War II buffs are? I admit, the only reason I know of Panzers first is because of civ4.

General knowledge is not enough when you're talking about Americans. The US history curriculum cares only for Pearl Harbor, D-Day, and the pacific front, with perhaps a mention of the western front before Pearl Harbor or even North Africa if you're being detailed.

Because Americans are adequate representatives of humankind

 

[LegioCorvus]

I would love to see T-34 as Russia's UU, it's as famous as Panzers.

Depends on your definition of famous. The first definition of the term is "widespread reputation." Panzers have a widespread reputation. You mention panzers to school children, and a few of them will know what they are. You mention T-34 to kids, and they'll probably think you're talking of a bomber, if anything at all.

T-34s are well known to a small group of people with extensive knowledge on a particular subject.

 

[Alki]

T34s are known to anyone who has even a passing interest in the greatest event of the last century. We're not talking about an insignifigant thing in quiet news day here, we're talking about one of the tanks that helped beat Nazi Germany.

edit: the T34 is to tanks what an AK47 is to assualt rifles.

 

[WastedEfforts]

T-34s are well known to a small group of people with extensive knowledge on a particular subject.

T-34 is mostly unknown to your average Joe (he only knows pearl Harbor and Normandy) and people from countries that were "neutral" during WW2 (like Sweden or Switzerland).
T-34 is considered as best all-around medium tank of ww2 and the most produced one during ww2.
You do not need to be history or military geek to know this.

 

[LegioCorvus]

T-34 is mostly unknown to your average Joe (he only knows pearl Harbor and Normandy) and people from countries that were "neutral" during WW2 (like Sweden or Switzerland).
T-34 is considered as best all-around medium tank of ww2 and the most produced one during ww2.
You do not need to be history or military geek to know this.

How about a Brit with a German wife living in Switzerland? I just asked my wife what a T-34 was. Blank stare. Had no idea. I asked her what a Panzer was, and she looked at me as if I were asking her what cheese was. Maybe that's not fair.

So I asked the girl living in the room we're renting out. French born, here for college. I asked her what a T-34 was. No idea. I asked her what a Panzer was. (Translated) "Some... sort of machine. German? A German war machine?" (Note: We're in Romandy - French speaking Switzerland).

I'd argue that you do need to be a history or military geek like us to know this. I mean, yes, that wasn't exactly a scientific survey, but it's a pretty good representative sample. A friend is coming to watch the Netherlands match in 45 minutes. She's from Holland. (I know, I know... it's like a model U.N. here). I'll bet dollars to donuts she has no idea what a T-34 is, either.

 

[Alki]

Ask her in Dutch not in English?

Just asked Stefan the young East German sitting next to me in the office.

"Stefan, do you know what a T34 is?"

"A panzer!"

 

[Mustakrakish]

And World War II buffs are? I admit, the only reason I know of Panzers first is because of civ4.

General knowledge is not enough when you're talking about Americans. The US history curriculum cares only for Pearl Harbor, D-Day, and the pacific front, with perhaps a mention of the western front before Pearl Harbor or even North Africa if you're being detailed.

I guess I understand your position here...

The Russian winter is overrated, Napoleon and Hitler could easily have negated the effects of the winter, but they underestimated the size of Russia. Europeans live in small crowded countries (In geographic terms) you can drive from Paris to Berlin in a day, but in Russia and America your dealing with massive differences, one state on average is the size of a European country. The French and Germans were defeated because they weren't ready for a winter war. Heck Napoleon thought he could hit Moscow and then be in saint Petersburg by fall of the year he invaded.

Not to mention it's a bit offensive for Russians, it's like you didn't do , it's your super magical winter.

For some reason Germany seems like Microsoft and USSR seems like Apple. Microsofts new battle strategy is "copy Apple"

Because Americans are adequate representatives of humankind

So it seems

Depends on your definition of famous. The first definition of the term is "widespread reputation." Panzers have a widespread reputation. You mention panzers to school children, and a few of them will know what they are. You mention T-34 to kids, and they'll probably think you're talking of a bomber, if anything at all.

T-34s are well known to a small group of people with extensive knowledge on a particular subject.

As I said everyone I know, definitely knew about T-34. They weren't history buffs, in fact one of my most ignorant friends regarding history once noticed it in Cod:waw and said:
F: "hey isn't that the... umm that Russian tank, it looks like it"
Me: "well yes it is, it's called T-34"
F: "oh yes that was the name"
Me: "And this is german tiger"
F: "Tiger?"
Not necessary remembering the name, but still knowing it. Yet they weren't history buffs, with extensive knowledge...
I also could say that people with basic education in Finland and Russia know what T-34 is one way or another. And I'm sure as hell half of them at least wouldn't know what Sherman tanks were or what was the name of the bombers that dropped the A-bombs on Japan.
You would say, of course they would know what T-34 is. To which I would say, well why a westerner should be the definition of general knowledge?

 

[Mustakrakish]

How about a Brit with a German wife living in Switzerland? I just asked my wife what a T-34 was. Blank stare. Had no idea. I asked her what a Panzer was, and she looked at me as if I were asking her what cheese was. Maybe that's not fair.

So I asked the girl living in the room we're renting out. French born, here for college. I asked her what a T-34 was. No idea. I asked her what a Panzer was. (Translated) "Some... sort of machine. German? A German war machine?" (Note: We're in Romandy - French speaking Switzerland).

I'd argue that you do need to be a history or military geek like us to know this. I mean, yes, that wasn't exactly a scientific survey, but it's a pretty good representative sample. A friend is coming to watch the Netherlands match in 45 minutes. She's from Holland. (I know, I know... it's like a model U.N. here). I'll bet dollars to donuts she has no idea what a T-34 is, either.

Just read my above post. If I would do the same here in Finland I would get the opposite effect... or maybe even equal

Edit: And what the hell is a Brit doing in Switzerland if not a secret?

 

[WastedEfforts]

Yeah this French lass seems very uh "educated". Not even knowing the tanks that steamrolled her country...