[BTS] Saved Game - What to do here?

[LincolnOfRome]

By 100ad I had built 13 elephants, 7 catapults, 1 axe and 2 spears. Mayan 2 main cities were taken down too. I think you were still attacking Incans at this point. By time you reached Mayans they had longbows.
Same is true for Toku. He had Samurai/Longbow when you declared on him. I faced axes/swords and spears. So much easier to take down. Protective LB would be very annoying!

I didn't conquer HC until 700AD. After that Pacal attacked me. I fought him 300 years and took a few cities but didn't wipe him out or vassal him. Toku actually declared on me the turn before I had cuirassiers. I had a great merchant on the other continent in the Temple of Artemis. I was able to upgrade all my war elephants. Protective longbows were not so bad against cuirassiers.

I think take it on the chin. Sampsa is a seasoned Civ 4 player here. His micro and gameplay will be well above yours and mine. I suspect with proper advice your game play could be much improved too. I don't think you deny this. The first 50-100 turns will in effect define your game.

Yes, if someone gives me constructive specific advice, I'm sure my gameplay could be much improved. I could be much better at timing my whips. Obviously, I have problems timing my attacks, or knowing exactly what forces I need in a given situation.

In the past, I have conquered a continent completely and had every city building wealth just to maintain a 0% research rate. Eventually the cottages start to grow and you get out of the hole, but it is an uncomfortable place to be. Even taking two civs in early rushes can slow the economy. An early beuro capital will strengthen the economy though.

Look at the Mansa 18 thread on earth map to see how a better early start can be a huge difference on game play. Even deciding which AI to attack first. Albeit with Incans and Mayans it's not hard to decide on this map. Mayans always tech super fast.

I will see if I can find it.

I don't think Incans on this map had metal so in theory a HA rush here should of been good. Target start date circa 1000bc or earlier?

You look like you have the force to attack now.

 

[LincolnOfRome]

@Gumbolt, I like how you built on the horse in your save. It looks like a nice spot for a future National Epic city.

 

[Gumbolt]

It's not hard judging number of units. I knew Incans would only have 3-4 units in capital. I could see 2 archers in their second city. On immortal I would of had a bigger stack of 10-11HA. Pends on what units the AI has. Getting attacked by Mayans and then Toku is unlucky. That or you did not do enough on diplomacy. Toku just loves attacking anyone. Surprisingly on my game none of the AI went war mode. I suspect my power rating scared them off. Mayans really had no stack. All three of Shaka, Toku and Pascal declare war at pleased so bribing them to attack eachother is often good. Diplomacy wise are you gifting resources and techs to get the AI to pleased? Bribing them into wars works well too. Open borders helps too after 50+ turns. Shared religion with Mayans is good especially if they have the holy city. Even at pleased you can beg gold to stop attacks. Maybe you could of done that with Toku. Gifting 1-2 techs gets you +3-4 diplomacy.

Pretty sure HA could take down 2 AI here if you keep pumping them out, With low sea level it's perhaps better to mix expanding with warfare. The big issue is distance and upkeep costs.

Low sea level provides challenges in itself as the AI will expand much more. Perhaps why Shaka never attacked me or the other AI.

Try playing a walk through game on here to get proper advice. @lymond loves a good walk through game. We need to see what you are doing pre 1000bc as this could be where a lot of your errors are. That and making a decision and putting everything into it to ensure timings.

Fish city was okay. I had the workers to improve the horse. It was settle on it or split the city up. Glad I was late to it in my first game so no decision to make.

Be interesting to see you do an early HA rush and deep tech to cuirs. Once Incans are dead there is room for a good 10-12+ cities with some great cottage sites. At some point I will finish that other game.

I think the continent has 64% of land with my 2 islands so should be fine once war with Shaka is done. Just a lot of cities to spam.

 

[Harv]

Look at the Mansa 18 thread on earth map to see how a better early start can be a huge difference on game play. Even deciding which AI to attack first.

It is an honor to be used as an example of what not to do.

The start on my map is terrible and great at the same time. There are so many options and directions!

 

[Gumbolt]

With Mansa start you have to do something different. Earth 18 is a fun map.Mansa is one of 2 best leaders in the game.

Maybe time for a new save on immortal but normal settings and no low sea level. Post start and await advice.

 

[LincolnOfRome]

If I was Mansa I think I would take the initial settler right up to Tunisia. IMHO, spiritual is the best leader trait. I'd give financial and philosophical a tie for number two.

 

[Harv]

If I was Mansa I think I would take the initial settler right up to Tunisia. IMHO, spiritual is the best leader trait. I'd give financial an philosophical a tie for number two.

This is one of the popular options. Right now, I am experimenting with a start around modern day Tangier and might post results later today. Somebody posted a save with that start, but then ran a builder game.

 

[jnebbe]

This is one of the popular options. Right now, I am experimenting with a start around modern day Tangier and might post results later today. Somebody posted a save with that start, but then ran a builder game.

Spiritual's like my 6th favorite lol, I just hate how it's almost useless in early game, only real benefit is saving a turn when switching into slavery. Fwiw I never go OR so that's probably part of the reason why I don't like it

 

[lymond]

Spiritual's like my 6th favorite lol, I just hate how it's almost useless in early game, only real benefit is saving a turn when switching into slavery. Fwiw I never go OR so that's probably part of the reason why I don't like it

I'd say it's number 2 or 3 for me, so Linc is not far off from the way I think. But Philo is just so good when used right. Expansive is actually my favorite trait, but I don't claim it to be #1 either - I just love having it though when I do.

CoL is where Spiritual starts to shine, and it's not that far off.

 

[Fippy]

Spi has unbeatable value (against AIs) in any game that needs fine tuning on diplo, and extracting techs or in general anything of value from them.

Prolly little known fun tip: you can save 1-2 gpt early (Civic Upkeep) by switching out of slavery again, when a city check confirms no whips are planned for 5+ turns

 

[sampsa]

I think you've implied that you believe I'm not even at the basic level yet.

Strange. I have no idea what I've said that could lead you to believe that. I'd view strategy in the way it was discussed as a rather advanced concept and I wouldn't even mention such things to a beginner, but only to someone who is approaching deity level.

 

[LincolnOfRome]

Spi has unbeatable value (against AIs) in any game that needs fine tuning on diplo, and extracting techs or in general anything of value from them.

I have no idea how many unwanted wars I have avoided because of spiritual. The diplomatic benefits alone make it a good trait. The ability to switch between caste and slavery is great too.

 

[LincolnOfRome]

Strange. I have no idea what I've said that could lead you to believe that. I'd view strategy in the way it was discussed as a rather advanced concept and I wouldn't even mention such things to a beginner, but only to someone who is approaching deity level.

Something you typed struck me wrong. I'm over it.

 

[LincolnOfRome]

I thought I would start a new game and really pay attention to micro at the beginning. This is immortal, pangea, seven civs, small map, standard speed, with low sea level. Goody huts are off, but random events are on. The leader I rolled was Isabella. She has fishing and mysticism. I can win just about every game at the emperor level, but immortal is a challenge to me. This is another good start with a cow, corn, gold, wine. It is next to a river with two floodplains. There is really nothing to reveal here. There is one partially obscured tile in the south and one in the east. Both are likely grassland forests.

The odd thing about Isabella is that she has conquistadors, so I always skip over the citadels for a more direct route to this great UU. One day I'd like to try her UB out as well.

To me, it looks like SIP is a no-brainer since you can see the whole BFC. The food looks sufficient. To the east of the cow or on one of the grassland hills is likely a strategic resource. I love plains hill starts because the worker comes out in 12 instead of 15 like in most starts. You also get one additional hammer forever.

Like most good starts, I may have Monty and Shaka as my nearest neighbors.

I'd like to start with agriculture and mining, but some may think that agriculture and AH would be better. I like to get one food resource up, but a gold mine speeds up research and boosts production. Also, AH takes a bit longer to learn.

@Gumbolt, I started the Mansa.

Spoiler :

 

[lymond]

Conks are my favorite.

Agree that SIP is a no brainer. I don't see you improving your situation by any moves over an already very powerful start. Gold really helps out Ms. Izzy since she starts behind the 8 ball with bad techs. Even more a consideration of possibly skipping AH for now to get to BW faster....and you appear to have plenty of forest. Decision on AH may be altered by further scouting if AH becomes just to valuable due to nearby food resources, but for now AG>BW looks like the smart play.

I think you can find success on this level with the guidance of this good crew of folks helpin' you out. Just be patient and open to advice, even that which sounds a bit blunt. Folks just want to help you.

Moving warrior 1S though seems a good move for a good view regardless. I'd be looking for a good city spot south of Madrid so that city can share the gold tile. Gold is great, but in the cap in slows growth early, so I like to pass it off to another city for a while.

 

[LincolnOfRome]

Moving the warrior 1S reveals the ocean coast to the southeast. A random number generator placed the settler just north of the jungle-covered zone. Sometimes there are un-jungled gem resources three moves away from the settler, but there are none here. Although the blue circle is saying the coast is a nice place to settle, it is most likely there would be nothing but cows here.

Spoiler :

 

[LincolnOfRome]

I will SIP at 4000BC. I will call this new city "Becerro de Oro" after the nearby resources and the biblical reference. In eight turns agriculture will be learned and in 12 turns a worker will emerge.

On turn two the warrior will move onto the grass hill to his southeast. This will reveal any nearby ocean resources available.

 

[LincolnOfRome]

To the southeast of Becerro de Oro there is a possible settling spot on the coast. A wet wheat can be seen there. The cow from Becerro de Oro can help grow the city until the wet wheat comes online.

Spoiler :

 

[LincolnOfRome]

If the second city is on the coast, AH may need to be added to the queue. I'll stop here for the evening.

At this point should the warrior move southwest or northeast. Suggestions?

My thoughts are to explore the area to the east of Becerro de Oro. Though the jungle area my have gems, the gems are likely covered with jungle and won't be available for a while. There may be other resources near the wet corn.

In the future, I imagine Becerro de Oro may be the decadent city in Isabella's empire. The gold and wine will corrupt the weak-willed and distract them from their devotion to God.

 

[Gumbolt]

Yeah skip AH as it requires 2 techs. AG obvious for now. Wet corn and 2H city tile is sweet.

Think the plains surrounded by forest will be a resource. Sometimes this can be late game resources.

You will want BW pretty early here. Likely before AH.

For now scout in a circle route round capital to find new resources till Agriculture. Worker first.