Scandinavia SUCKS

Hi Americans!

My student debth: 0 € and goverment pays me monthly 500 € for studing.

How about you?

I pay less than 20% of my gross income in taxes, how about you? Or rather, how much do you expect to pay after you're done with school? And I don't have any student debt either, or any form of debt for that matter.

Different systems are better for different people. If you're single, employed and making decent money (or even half-decent), it's a no-brainer: the US is about 1000 times more appealing than Scandinavia.

If you're unemployed, unable to find a decent job, or have more kids than you can support by yourself, Scandinavian countries are far better.

Personally I'd rather live in several African countries than Sweden. And the US is just a billion times better.
 
^^A billion? Here I though we agreed on a 1000 times better?
 
^^A billion? Here I though we agreed on a 1000 times better?

Well the first is from a purely economic self-interest POV. When you add the weather, one billion might be an understatement of just how much I prefer the US to Sweden.
 
I liked this bit:

Like, yeah, what did she think would happen? That's not some weird Scandinavian crab-bucketting, that's the result of violating a cultural taboo on overt bragging. They don't resent her for her child's academic success, they result her using it as a gesture of social superiority.

(Or maybe Alex Salmond was right and Scotland really is the sixth Nordic country, who knows.)

Indeed. I mean, there's certainly some way of telling people that you're awesome, but it's very easy to look arrogant doing it. And trust me, it is possible to talk about your succesful children here without being met with awkward icy silence.

Different systems are better for different people. If you're single, employed and making decent money (or even half-decent), it's a no-brainer: the US is about 1000 times more appealing than Scandinavia.

If you're unemployed, unable to find a decent job, or have more kids than you can support by yourself, Scandinavian countries are far better.

You know, it's not that simple. Wealthy people have it quite well here. A simple tax rate isn't the only thing to factor in when choosing where to live. You make it out as if we're only a good place to live in for poor people. We have great purchasing power, very little corruption, great social stability and a huge safety and healthcare net for everyone. Also the public sector makes everything easy for everyone.

I wouldn't ever want to live in the US, unless I'm in a higher income bracket than middle class. The politics suck, the healthcare is an awfully expensive wasteful money drain, the police is violent, the social safety net is terrible, and student debt is ridiculously high and wasteful. (I've read plenty of terrible stories about the cost of education being artificially bloated because of things like expensive overinvestment in prettifying university grounds.)

Personally I'd rather live in several African countries than Sweden. And the US is just a billion times better.

Eh, I'm sorry, but why the hell would you want that? I mean, I'm well aware that African countries aren't the hellholes they're often portrayed as, and that several are doing quite well, but certainly not on the level of Sweden. Sweden's great. It's one of the best places to be born into, and not just as a poor person.
 
Well the first is from a purely economic self-interest POV. When you add the weather, one billion might be an understatement of just how much I prefer the US to Scandinavia.

Ah, the weather. Ok stuff like that would make more sense. Have to say, though, I absolutely despise just being in Southern Europe. It's horrible. I much prefer the cold climate here.
 
You know, it's not that simple. Wealthy people have it quite well here. A simple tax rate isn't the only thing to factor in when choosing where to live. You make it out as if we're only a good place to live in for poor people. We have great purchasing power, very little corruption, great social stability and a huge safety and healthcare net for everyone. Also the public sector makes everything easy for everyone.
Wealthy people live quite well everywhere. But they live massively better in the US than in Scandinavia, unless you're ultra-rich when differences in tax rates and price levels don't matter anymore (but I'm not ultra-rich, and neither is virtually the entirety of the human race).

If you make around 100,000 dollars per year, and you don't have kids (or just have one or two and have a working spouse), you'll live far better in the US than even Norway, the richest of the Scandinavian countries. You'll pay less than half the taxes you would in Norway. Everything is cheaper, from cars to laptops to houses. In most US cities you can buy a mansion for less than 500,000 USD. How about Norway? Ha! I have coworkers in Stavanger who make a lot of money and yet live in apartments that would be considered shacks in the US. When they visit me they think I'm a Saudi prince or something, despite my gross income being actually smaller than theirs (though my net income is higher due to low taxes).

I wouldn't ever want to live in the US, unless I'm in a higher income bracket than middle class. The politics suck, the healthcare is an awfully expensive wasteful money drain, the police is violent, the social safety net is terrible, and student debt is ridiculously high and wasteful. (I've read plenty of terrible stories about the cost of education being artificially bloated because of things like expensive overinvestment in prettifying university grounds.)
There's hardly a better country to be middle-class than the US. Who cares about politics, your company will pay for most of your healthcare costs, police is polite and does not harass me, I don't care about safety net because I'll never need it, I don't have any student debt. So there. Why would I take Scandinavia over this?

Eh, I'm sorry, but why the hell would you want that? I mean, I'm well aware that African countries aren't the hellholes they're often portrayed as, and that several are doing quite well, but certainly not on the level of Sweden. Sweden's great. It's one of the best places to be born into, and not just as a poor person.
Sweden would confiscate most of my hard-earned money and in exchange for that make me miserable and freezing most of the year. No, if I could make as much I would much (MUCH) rather live in say Cape Town.

Of course, if God asked me before I was born, "would rather be born as a random Swede or a random African?" I would much rather be born a random Swede. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the appeal of different countries to different people - I'm not a starving African.
 
Is this to be considered the official sequel to the Australia sucks thread?
 
Ah, the weather. Ok stuff like that would make more sense. Have to say, though, I absolutely despise just being in Southern Europe. It's horrible. I much prefer the cold climate here.

If it makes you feel better, neither does anyone down here like being here.
 
Wealthy people live quite well everywhere. But they live massively better in the US than in Scandinavia, unless you're ultra-rich when differences in tax rates and price levels don't matter anymore (but I'm not ultra-rich, and neither is virtually the entirety of the human race).

If you make around 100,000 dollars per year, and you don't have kids (or just have one or two and have a working spouse), you'll live far better in the US than even Norway, the richest of the Scandinavian countries. You'll pay less than half the taxes you would in Norway. Everything is cheaper, from cars to laptops to houses. In most US cities you can buy a mansion for less than 500,000 USD. How about Norway? Ha! I have coworkers in Stavanger who make a lot of money and yet live in apartments that would be considered shacks in the US. When they visit me they think I'm a Saudi prince or something, despite my gross income being actually smaller than theirs (though my net income is higher due to low taxes).

Most of my family live in quite large houses and earn no more than 200,000 USD. They are living extremely comfortable lives. What is a mansion to you? We have no direct translation in Danish. Is it a villa or a palæ? Is it two houses with two stories each and a huge yard and forested area? One house with three stories and fifteen rooms and both front and back yard? Two stories, ocean view and sixteen rooms? I do not know about your weirdo Stavanger collegues. City apartments are of course smaller and more expensive than houses. The examples I provided are, in Denmark, not considered part of the capital but they might as well just be the city's suburbs as far as I can gather about the American attitude about distance. The public transportation system here is much better than in the US, so cars aren't as needed.

And, again, if any of these investments fail, they get fired etc... Things will work out, because we have a safety net. It's worth a relatively mundane tax difference, especially with how well people live.

There's hardly a better country to be middle-class than the US. Who cares about politics, your company will pay for most of your healthcare costs, police is polite and does not harass me, I don't care about safety net because I'll never need it, I don't have any student debt. So there. Why would I take Scandinavia over this?

Yeah, you'll never need a social safety net. If you work in the private sector, your corporation cannot possibly fail, and if you work in the public sector, your department cannot possibly be shut down. It's impossible for you to ever need a safety net. Especially because you are such a shining example of rugged individualism. You will never fail.

I want to know, esp. as I do admit to not know the Brazilian educational system, how come you don't have any student debt? Is it publicly funded or did you work to pay off the debt? Or did mummy and daddy pay for it?

Sweden would confiscate most of my hard-earned money and in exchange for that make me miserable and freezing most of the year. No, if I could make as much I would much (MUCH) rather live in say Cape Town.

Of course, if God asked me before I was born, "would rather be born as a random Swede or a random African?" I would much rather be born a random Swede. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the appeal of different countries to different people - I'm not a starving African.

Your money isn't hard-earned. It's usually provided per circumstance, and you so happen to have rolled the proper dice. There are a lot of people that make all the right choices and are smart but still end up in sucky situations. The cool thing about Scandinavia is that the safety net is much better at making sure you have another chance to do what you're good at.

EDIT: And also, I'm sorry, but it's simply wrong that corrupt politicians don't matter.
 
Most of my family live in quite large houses and earn no more than 200,000 USD. They are living extremely comfortable lives. What is a mansion to you? We have no direct translation in Danish. Is it a villa or a palæ? Is it two houses with two stories each and a huge yard and forested area? One house with three stories and fifteen rooms and both front and back yard? Two stories, ocean view and sixteen rooms? I do not know about your weirdo Stavanger collegues. City apartments are of course smaller and more expensive than houses. The examples I provided are, in Denmark, not considered part of the capital but they might as well just be the city's suburbs as far as I can gather about the American attitude about distance. The public transportation system here is much better than in the US, so cars aren't as needed.

And, again, if any of these investments fail, they get fired etc... Things will work out, because we have a safety net. It's worth a relatively mundane tax difference, especially with how well people live.
Well the thing is you can probably live as well with 100,000 dollars in the US as with 200,000 in Norway or Denmark. The difference in taxes are not "mundane", they're 100%. An upper middle-class individual will pay about 100% more in taxes in Denmark than the US. How is that mundane or negligible? It's a massive difference.

A mansion is just a big and fancy house. Housing in most of the US is very cheap. A nice 100 m² apartment in Stavanger will cost you about 1 million USD. With that money in most US cities you can but a house 4-5 times that big, with a pool, bbq area, multiple stories, a huge garage, etc. And of course you'll have more more money to buy stuff in the US because taxes are much lower and everything else is cheaper, so saving is easier. Stavanger may be an extreme case but I doubt Oslo would be much cheaper. And housing is just part of the equation. Everything is cheaper in the US. How much does a beer cost at a restaurant in Noway? It's about 5 times more than the US. How much does gasoline cost? A nice steak? Coffee at Starbucks? One night at a good hotel? You just get a lot more bang for the buck in the US. That's not negligible, it's massive.

Yeah, you'll never need a social safety net. If you work in the private sector, your corporation cannot possibly fail, and if you work in the public sector, your department cannot possibly be shut down. It's impossible for you to ever need a safety net. Especially because you are such a shining example of rugged individualism. You will never fail.
I'm quite confident I'll never "fail", just like my dad never "failed", nor any of his brothers, nor my gradparents or any of their brothers. Nobody ever needed government dole for anything. Of course individual enterprises they had failed along the way, companies went bust, new careers had to be sought... but they always made ends meet, because they always had skills and the will to use them. As do I. My gradpa was a farmer who was ruined by government price controls, he had to sell everything for pennies and taught mathematics at a private school for some years until he could start something else. But that's the thing, there will always be demand for skilled people, even if it's not your dream job. And because I don't have to pay so much taxes and everything is quite cheap here, I can save a lot of money. I could live off savings for many years if need be, but I won't need it because I'll ever be able to find some employment, even if its inferior to what I would like. There's no conceivable scenario in which I would need the government's - or anyone else's - charity (other than suffering some sort of horrific accident that would render me permanently incapable both physically and mentally - in which case I would not want to live, most likely). So the safety net might be appealing for lots of people, but it isn't for me.

I want to know, esp. as I do admit to not know the Brazilian educational system, how come you don't have any student debt? Is it publicly funded or did you work to pay off the debt? Or did mummy and daddy pay for it?
Publically funded for the small minority that manages to get approved to the federal unis. It's a very unfair system really. But daddy would have gladly paid if I was not approved.

Your money isn't hard-earned. It's usually provided per circumstance, and you so happen to have rolled the proper dice. There are a lot of people that make all the right choices and are smart but still end up in sucky situations. The cool thing about Scandinavia is that the safety net is much better at making sure you have another chance to do what you're good at.
Of course it's hard earned, don't be ridiculous. Being favored by circumstances is part of it, but that doesn't mean I don't work hard. I do. I would much rather not work and spend my whole time just enjoying life, but I don't. I do work and quite a lot, and I want to keep the majority of the fruits of that work, thank you very much.
 
I can turn this into a trilogy with "Bulgaria Sucks!" but that would be telling the obvious, and thus, unnecessary.

I think every country should have a '[Insert country here] sucks!' thread. We can turn it into a franchise!
 
I wouldn't ever want to live in the US, unless I'm in a higher income bracket than middle class. The politics suck, the healthcare is an awfully expensive wasteful money drain, the police is violent, the social safety net is terrible, and student debt is ridiculously high and wasteful. (I've read plenty of terrible stories about the cost of education being artificially bloated because of things like expensive overinvestment in prettifying university grounds.)

Heynow, it's a super big country. My police are better quality than most(it seems), the healthcare is expensive but allows us to use top-tier research medicine out of the University of Chicago for necessary conditions despite the fact that we very much aren't rich. I've used unemployment, my wife has used unemployment, we've paid off the lions share of our student debt within 8 years of it accruing, and you probably wouldn't hate the weather in Northern Illinois. I'm sure icyballsland doesn't all suck either. :p
 
Yeah luiz, your ability to profit is because of circumstance. Paying high taxes in return for your ability to make money is morally fair.

And, well, the tax is kind of mundane, when considering the return, and the ability to buy anything you need. City apartments are always expensive. If people have an issue with space, they should just move out to the suburbs. What I noted as housing is the standard there.

Also, well, I think there's a quite reasonable reason people don't have pools here. I know some who do, and they don't use it. It has more to do with the weather than anything else, really. We do have bbqs, all of us, and I can personally eat reliably often at restaurants living on state support. It's not that expensive, I'm not sure why you think it is. Beers are insanely expensive in Norway, that's true. But it has to do with health policy more than anything. It's perfectly affordable in Denmark, there's a reason we get drunk so often.
 
I'm quite confident I'll never "fail", just like my dad never "failed", nor any of his brothers, nor my gradparents or any of their brothers.

That's great and all, but I would never want to live in a society that doesn't provide a solid safety net for those who fall on hard times. It ends up affecting everyone negatively - including those who will never need such support.
 
(Or maybe Alex Salmond was right and Scotland really is the sixth Nordic country, who knows.)

Indeed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/55th_parallel_north

Nordic_Europe.png


PS: Maybe that's why Scotland sucks at referendums?
 
This is just racism, and an appeal to racism. What the people using it is saying is, 'the US can't do welfare well, because we have too many blacks'.

I dispute that. The bar is not racial, it is cultural and economic. If America was a colourblind society (i.e. blacks and whites do not view each other and themselves as a unique community) and received little immigrants, it would have been a lot easier to reach an understanding on a comprehensive welfare system, since people no longer associate whole racial groups with welfare. It is no surprise that European countries have become more economically libertarian as they became more multicultural.

A heterogenous population has massive income disparities (some groups are wealthy, and some poor, by pure chance and policy would take decades to fix it) and thus great disparities in need. Thus, that's why stereotypes about black people on welfare in the US is so pervasive; it is hard to attune policies for all kinds of people.
 
Welfare states work best among a homogeneous people, and the kind of diversity and mistrust we have between groups in America means we could never reach a broad consensus on Nordic levels of social spending.

According to JayMan's Blog Scandinavians are not "a homogeneous people", but rather the opposite:

https://jaymans.wordpress.com/2013/09/07/how-inbred-are-europeans/

Europeans – and for that matter East Asians – have, by in large, ceased inbreeding in the 20th century by the latest. However, first cousin marriage – particularly the highly incestuous father’s brother’s daughter type – is still the rule in the Muslim world, which means that they should be far more inbred than even the most inbred Europeans could hope to be. This gives rise to, according to HBD Chick’s hypothesis, the many fairly unique pathologies found in the Muslim world (also here, Those Who Can See: Arabs and Liberal Democracy: A Primer).

To briefly mention, the problems found in East Asia – particularly China – may be also related to their historically high rates of cousin marriage. See (from HBD chick) abridged history of cousin marriage in china, crash course in chinese clans, and the problem with china. Korea and especially Japan may experience fewer of these problems because they may be further along the “outbreeding” process, as I’ll soon discuss.

Inbred.png


However, immigrants to Europe from other continents still practice inbred marriage (not on such a large scale as in their home countries).

That's why Western Europe with high % of immigrants has more inbreeding than Eastern Europe nowadays:

globalcolorsmall.jpg


Prevalence and Legality of Cousin Marriage, 2012:

Inbreeding.png
 
Yeah luiz, your ability to profit is because of circumstance. Paying high taxes in return for your ability to make money is morally fair.

And, well, the tax is kind of mundane, when considering the return, and the ability to buy anything you need. City apartments are always expensive. If people have an issue with space, they should just move out to the suburbs. What I noted as housing is the standard there.

Also, well, I think there's a quite reasonable reason people don't have pools here. I know some who do, and they don't use it. It has more to do with the weather than anything else, really. We do have bbqs, all of us, and I can personally eat reliably often at restaurants living on state support. It's not that expensive, I'm not sure why you think it is. Beers are insanely expensive in Norway, that's true. But it has to do with health policy more than anything. It's perfectly affordable in Denmark, there's a reason we get drunk so often.

Well luckily we don't have to rely on anecdotes or personal experience to gauge how expensive a country is, as there are official statistics on the subject.

According to the OECD, to get the equivalent of 100 dollars worth of consumption in the US, a Dane has to spend 136 Dollars, a Swede 135 dollars, and Norwegian 156 dollars. That's a difference ranging from 35% to 56% across Scandinavia. So it's not just beer that is more expensive - everything is, and massively so.

So why exactly would a guy like me prefer Scandinavia to the US? I'd pay 100% more in taxes and anywhere from 35% to 56% more on everything I buy. Living in the US means I keep a much larger share of my income, and that whatever money I keep is able to buy far more stuff. Translating to living standard, that means a nicer and bigger home with more and nicer stuff in it, a nicer car, eating at better restaurants more often, vacations at nicer places. And saving more money for the future.

It goes back to what I said earlier, which was quite self-evident but you took exception to. Different systems are better for different people. For someone like me - skilled, no debt, decent job - the US is a much more appealing choice of residence. It's a no-brainer. For people who can't pay their own bills with their own money, Scandinavia is a much better choice.
 
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