Schiavo autopsy: brain shrunk to half the size, even if given water would have died

[FredLC]

No it doesn't. It just shows that:

1. He may have been trying to cover up a crime by having her killed AND CREMATED when she never wanted to be cremated in the first place.

Your thesis is quite empty and does not make sense at all. If there were the slightest signal towards the direction of a murder, cremation would not be allowed before autopsy were performed – and autopsy is by far and large the most effective manner to find traces of subtle assassinations.

If that man feared that “his crime would be found”, the best thing he could possibly do were to keep her alive, and delay the only thing that could even theoretically get him – the autopsy – allowing for traces of the crime to disappear, or the crime itself to expire.

2. Once it got in the public eye, he wouldn't want to reverse course at any point anyway even putting aside a motive for covering up foul play since reversing course at that point would just ruins one's reputation.

As opposed to the delightful reputation that he now enjoys?

He didn't care for her fully. He ordered that therapy be not given to her. One of the nurses who witnessed this has now spoken out. She tried to help Terri with something but was told by him that she couldn't since that was "therapy."

I don’t know the circumstances of that fact, but I’d like to see links pointed out as to what kind of “therapy” he denied her and why did he do that. Could you point me to where you read about it? Because caring for her in a mild manner when it would be much easier to let her under the care of her parents does not make much sense.

You don't express profound feelings for someone by continuing to cheat on them and live with another woman.

No, you do that taking charge of demanding medical care and facing a public fight for what you consider right for someone.

Perhaps in Hollywood when a person cheats his/her better half, it instantly means that this person is a cold-blooded bastard that has no human feelings and want to assassinate the other… but in real life things are a little different, you know?

Besides, since you didn’t made a point of this, I tend to think that this relationship he engaged and you vilified happened after Miss Schiavo’s breakdown… when I can hardly call it “cheating”.

Care to either confirm or set me straight?

I don't know why you talk about her parents' "religious zeal" since according to her husband, they aren't very religious.

Perhaps I was fooled by the contour of the public debate – the details of the Schindler’s family was not dug in very deeply here, as this case was kind of peripheral in our press, unlike what happened in the US. However, even if they were not zealots in general, and even if they never used the religious argument on behalf of their perception of what should have happened, they were unreasonable in their baseless defense, and found fertile terrain in the religious zeal of others to support their own flawed ideas.

BTW, the lead lawyer for the Gore side in Bush versus Gore -- the US Supreme Court case that decided the 2000 election -- has expressed sympathy and support for Terri Shiavo and her family's plight, saying for example that the US Court of Appeals ought to stay the withdrawal of food and water from Terri (back when she was still alive).

What’s this, an appeal to authority? If all the reasoning he can offer to suggesting that this is what should happened is the way his sympathies works, the fact that he happens to be a famous lawyer simply has no effect in my disagreement from his position.

I have much more sympathy for the Suffering that this woman was needlessly having to bare and the fight that her former husband engaged to end it.

On a side note: even if he were a murderer and had really caused her collapse and latter acted to hide his crime – as you suggested, despite this seems to lack substance – it does not change at all the fact that euthanasia was the best path for her. She would have to be put out of her misery, and he arrested, and that’s it… because, no matter how frustrating this may be to those who fought to keep her as an actual golen for years to come, Mr. Schiavo was defending the right thing to Miss Schiavo… even if for the wrong reasons.

Regards .

 

[Scrimshaw]

Even if he just got the time off by 30 minutes one of those times and got it right the other of those times, there's still the question of a 40 minute or 70 minute delay in calling emergency services.

You all know that he went public with a girlfriend who he has children with while his wife was in her disabled condition. That's a powerful motive for everything he may have done. He's not exactly the faithful husband type.

I picked 30 minutes as an example. I'm off by hours or days if you ask me later enough. If it were me , I wouldn't have been able to give times. Police would ask when I found her and I'd have had to answer "sometime in the night, I don't know". I'm just not great with time and maybe he's not perfect either and gave an inaccurate account by accident.

 

[blackheart]

Cierdan, where do you even make up all of this stuff? The facts have been presented and yet you continue to ignore them, I'm shocked and appalled. Maybe up next you'll conclude that the earth is indeed flat.

 

[VoodooAce]

Cierdan, where do you even make up all of this stuff? The facts have been presented and yet you continue to ignore them, I'm shocked and appalled. Maybe up next you'll conclude that the earth is indeed flat.

LOL. And he'll blame it on Michael Schiavo.

 

[OrpheusPrime]

This whole issue about the vegetable lady needs to die. In the news, in all the never ending conversations I hear at work. My god, its so annoying. >_<

 

[hbdragon88]

This whole issue about the vegetable lady needs to die. In the news, in all the never ending conversations I hear at work. My god, its so annoying. >_<

Hey, it's been 40 years and the debate over the JFK assassination has refused to die.

 

[wilbill]

The autosopy was not even able to determine that it was a heart attack that led to her condition. The cause of what led to her disabled condition was not able to be determined at all.

But there's virtually no question what killed her. According to the Miami Herald

"Bush's inquiry raises the possibility that Terri Schiavo was struggling helplessly for an hour and 10 minutes, but medical experts cast serious doubt that she could have survived at all if that were true.

When paramedics arrived at 5:52 a.m., 12 minutes after Michael Schiavo dialed 911, Terri Schiavo was suffering from an irregular heart rhythm called ventricular fibrillation, according to her autopsy report. According to University of Miami cardiologist Robert J. Myerburg, who is not connected to the case, the ''overwhelming likelihood'' was that this irregularity was what caused Schiavo to pass out.

No one could have passed out from ventricular fibrillation and stayed alive for more than an hour, Myerburg said. Ventricular fibrillation causes death within 15 to 20 minutes, he said."

Ventricular Fibrillation, according to the American Heart Association, "is a condition in which the heart's electrical activity becomes disordered. When this happens, the heart's lower (pumping) chambers contract in a rapid, unsynchronized way. (The ventricles "flutter" rather than beat.) The heart pumps little or no blood." It's not a true heart attack (caused by blood clots in the coronary blood vessels). It certainly can be caused by a lack of potassiium in the system - a common result of eating disorders. So what you have is a woman who couldn't have been unconscious much longer than the time between Schiavo's 911 call and the arrival of the EMT's in a condition which could have been brought on by the eating disorder that she was thought to have had.

Cierdan, you and Governor Bush suffer from the same problem - you didn't get your way and now you don't know how to give up gracefully. Face facts. She was in a persistant vegetative state. She suffered a heart arythmia that caused that condition. The laws of Florida gave her husband the power to carry out her wishes which were to be allowed to die.

And please quit dragging up Schiavo's girlfriend. You know from previous threads on the subject that he only started dating a few years after his wife became a vegetable and at the urging of her parents.

edit: added definition of V-fib.

 

[cegman]

Cierdan what are you smoking? cause me and God need a little chat about you and you seem to have some very good stuff.

 

[Jeff Yu]

The amount of spin and ignorance put up by the Bush-Republican-religious unholy alliance just appalls me. For chrissakes lave the poor man alone. He's already lost his wife years and and he's been hounded, investigated, threatened, and sued just so he can allow his wife to rest in peace, and the autopsy only confirms the case he's been making all along. I can just imagine the next headlines these guys will make.

"Autopsy reveals Terry Schiavo to be still alive"

Despite claims by doctors and scientists that Terry Schiavo is in fact dead, the family of Terry and her supporters have been clamoring to restore her feeding tube and restore her to Florida state custody. Comments Schiavo's mother, "Terry is still alive. She's not dead, she's crying for help, and wants to go to the mall with me."

 

[wit>trope]

I picked 30 minutes as an example. I'm off by hours or days if you ask me later enough. If it were me , I wouldn't have been able to give times. Police would ask when I found her and I'd have had to answer "sometime in the night, I don't know". I'm just not great with time and maybe he's not perfect either and gave an inaccurate account by accident.

Being off by hours and being off by days are two separate things. You could accurately remember about what time of day it happened while not remembering which day it happened and vice versa.

Anyway, if he wasn't sure of the time, why did he say "4:30" and "5:00" instead of "4, 5, 6, or 7 -- around there"? So if he's innocent he must have been off BOTH times since the emergency call came at 5:40. They should look into when sunset happened that day and ask him if it was before or after sunset. Hopefully the investigation will be able to determine what happened. I saw a guest on Fox say that if were to go on trial that there'd be a good chance he'd be convicted because of the emotion surrounding the case (other guests disagreed)

 

[wit>trope]

I don't think anyone here has actually READ the 39 page autopsy but guess what? The autopsy actually implies that murder is a distinct possibility:

"Autopsy examination of her neck structures 15 years after her initial collapse did not detect any signs of remote trauma, but, with such a delay, the exam was unlikely to show any residual neck findings."

The autosopy did not say that she was not murdered. It kept an open mind as to whether she was murdered and said that additional information that comes to light in the future may cause the office to find that it was actually a murder (i.e. homicide as "manner of death")

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/002756.htm

 

[FriendlyFire]

The autosopy did not say that she was not murdered

"Between 40 and 70 minutes elapsed before the call was made, and I am aware of no explanation for the delay,'' Bush said. ""In light of this new information, I urge you to take a fresh look at this case without any preconceptions as to the outcome."

Downing street memo comes out on WMD intell we get nothing
But someone getting the time wrong we get an investigation

sigh

 

[Black_Hole]

I hope everyone knows this autopsy was taken after she had been deprived of food and water for over a week... That may have changed some stuff...

 

[wit>trope]

"Between 40 and 70 minutes elapsed before the call was made, and I am aware of no explanation for the delay,'' Bush said. ""In light of this new information, I urge you to take a fresh look at this case without any preconceptions as to the outcome."

Downing street memo comes out on WMD intell we get nothing
But someone getting the time wrong we get an investigation

sigh

why does everyone keep bringing up WMDs? This has nothing to do with WMDs and in case you didn't know the Bush who asked for an investigation to which a Florida prosecutor agreed is a DIFFERENT BUSH. It's the Governor of Florida who got the Florida prosecutor to agree to an investigation, not the President. They are brothers but it's not the same person and the Governor of Florida had nothing to do with the WMD stuff. And many people who supported Terri did not support the war in Iraq. Pat Buchanan for example supported Terri but was against the war in Iraq. I wasn't too hot about the war in Iraq either.

 

[FriendlyFire]

why does everyone keep bringing up WMDs? This has nothing to do with WMDs and in case you didn't know the Bush who asked for an investigation to which a Florida prosecutor agreed is a DIFFERENT BUSH. It's the Governor of Florida who got the Florida prosecutor to agree to an investigation, not the President. They are brothers but it's not the same person and the Governor of Florida had nothing to do with the WMD stuff. And many people who supported Terri did not support the war in Iraq. Pat Buchanan for example supported Terri but was against the war in Iraq. I wasn't too hot about the war in Iraq either.

Iam talking about a single report (Autopsy) Triggering an investigation. Not the whole report but rather a single fact of that report as the basies for this action.

I find it ironic that a single piece of incomplete information can trigger an investigation. Gain wide spread media coverage and hold the attention of US public. Meanwhile we have a smoking gun(s) from the Downing street memos is virtually ignored.

 

[wit>trope]

Iam talking about a single report (Autopsy) Triggering an investigation. Not the whole report but rather a single fact of that report as the basies for this action.

I find it ironic that a single piece of incomplete information can trigger an investigation. Gain wide spread media coverage and hold the attention of US public. Meanwhile we have a smoking gun(s) from the Downing street memos is virtually ignored.

Well actually,

1. It's not just just a single discrepancy. Though the Governor referred to one, he alluded also to many many other causes for suspecting foul play. You do know that Mr Schiavo was already investigated by a Florida agency that deals with things like domestic abuse. Just a sample of the mountain of evidence supporting the hypothesis that there was foul play:

"Dr. William Hammesfahr, a world renowned neurologist wrote a complete report concerning the Schiavo case in September, 2002, revealing that medical tests conducted after her collapse did not show evidence of a heart attack. In the emergency room, a possible diagnosis of heart attack was briefly entertained but then dismissed after blood chemistries and serial EKG’s did not show evidence of a heart attack. ( Complete Report of Dr. William Hammesfahr) Dr. Hammesfahr testified that she had sustained injuries consistent with abuse."

http://www.theempirejournal.com/61053_experts_say_schiavo_injuri.htm

The Hospice that "treated" Terri has been invesitaged by the United States federal government and fined 14.8 million dollars:

"The Hospice of Florida Suncoast is the subject of a collection action totaling $14.8 million by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services as the result of a federal audit in 1995 which determined that the hospice under CEO Labyak had been admitting ineligible people to the hospice and unlawfully billing the federal government for their care under Medicare. The federal government has been trying to recover the Medicare overpayments made to the hospice since May, 1997 at the time when George Felos, attorney for Michael Schiavo, was chairman of the hospice board."

http://www.theempirejournal.com/531052_schiavo_hospice_ceo_deter.htm

And THIS is the most important fact. A NURSE who once cared for Terri recently came out (before she died) and said on BOTH CNN and Fox that Mr Schiavo said, "When is that b____ going to die?" and also claims that Mr Schiavo injected Terri with insulin:

Ms. Iyer said that after Michael visited Terri one day for about 20 minutes, with the door shut, she went in after he left and saw Terri sweating, lethargic and "crying hysterically."

Carla checked Terri's blood sugar, and it was barely reading on the glucometer. She also saw a vial of "insulin concealed in the trash bin."

According to Carla, there were needle marks underneath Terri's breast, under her arms and near her groin. Carla talked to the police and then went to the director of nursing, who was very upset that Carla had gone to the police.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/22/122830.shtml

Maybe you don't like newsmax as a source but remember this was on BOTH CNN and Fox. You can verify by this by going here:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200503230001

And two other nurses have corrobated her story:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/22/235813.shtml

Remember this is just a sample! Anyone not biased will see that this is plenty of cause for a prosecutorial investigation.

2. The Downing memo or whatever is not being ignored. Some Congressmen are asking for an explanation or something like that. I don't care about it because I see the Downing memo as a good thing. When you're going to war it's important to plan ahead. I'm not sure the war was a good idea but what's definitely a BAD idea is to go to war without any plans.

 

[wilbill]

"Dr. William Hammesfahr, a world renowned neurologist wrote a complete report concerning the Schiavo case in September, 2002, revealing that medical tests conducted after her collapse did not show evidence of a heart attack.

Hammesfahr is not world renowned, he's a quack who falsely claims to be a "Nobel Prize nominee" and who was fined and censured by the Floroda Medical Board for advertising a "cure" for stroke victims which didn't work. He's just another snake oil salesman you love to drag out to support your ridiculous claims.

The Hospice that "treated" Terri has been invesitaged by the United States federal government and fined 14.8 million dollars:

Read your own quote, Cierdan. The hospice was fined for billing irregularities - it had nothing to do with patient care.

And THIS is the most important fact. A NURSE who once cared for Terri recently came out (before she died) and said on BOTH CNN and Fox that Mr Schiavo said, "When is that b____ going to die?" and also claims that Mr Schiavo injected Terri with insulin:

It's worth noting, Cierdan, that the Schindlers chose NOT to use her testimony in any of the court hearings - I think that speaks for its value. Here's what Judge Greer had to say about these "nurses" (there were actually 2 of them).

"The remaining affidavits deal exclusively with events which allegedly occurred in the 1995-1997 time frame. The court feels constrained to discuss them. They are incredible to say the least. Ms. Iyer details what amounts to a 15-month cover-up which would include the staff of Palm Garden of Lago Convalescent Center, the Guardian of the Person, the Guardian ad Litem, the medical professionals, the police and, believe it or not, Mr. and Mrs. Schindler. Her affidavit clearly states that she would "call them (Mr. and Mrs. Schindler) anyway because I thought they should know about their daughter." The affidavit of Ms. Law speaks of Terri responding on a constant basis. Neither in the testimony nor in the medical records is there support for these affidavits as they purport to detail activities and responses of Terri Schiavo. It is impossible to believe that Mr. and Mrs. Schindler would not have subpoenaed Ms. Iyer for the January 2000 evidentiary hearing had she contacted them as her affidavit alleges"

Of course, as you've stated on previous occasions, Judge Greer is part of the murder conspiracy, so I guess his thoughts won't carry much weight with you, will they?

 

[FriendlyFire]

Hammesfahr is not world renowned, he's a quack who falsely claims to be a "Nobel Prize nominee" and who was fined and censured by the Floroda Medical Board for advertising a "cure" for stroke victims which didn't work. He's just another snake oil salesman you love to drag out to support your ridiculous claims.

Wasnt he was banned from practicing medicine and had hes certification revoked ?

 

[wilbill]

Wasnt he was banned from practicing medicine and had hes certification revoked ?

He was suspended for 6 months and only allowed to practice under supervision of another doctor. He also paid a fine and had to perform community service. This happened in '03, so presumably he's practicing (a good word for it in his case) again.

Hammesfahr is still a legend in his own mind, though. During the earlier Schiavo episode this year, he made the rounds of the conservative TV talk shows - Hannity, O'Reilly, Scarborough, etc. He claimed to be a "Nobel Prize Nominated" neurologist and they ate it up, introducing him as such and sticking captions under him noting "Nobel Prize Nominee." His "nomination" was a letter sent to the Nobel Institute by his Republican Congressman. It don't work that way, unfortunately, so his claim is just a lie. Joe Scarborough on MSNBC even stated at one point that Hammesfahr had "treated" Terri Schiavo, which is, of course, not true.

 

[Renata]

That's just sick. And these guys have the nerve to get on Dan Rather's case. At least in that case, the truth about the memo in question would have taken more than 2 minutes with Google to worm out.

Renata