Science

[albie_123]

I don't really see how building a stone circle late in the game is any different to building a castle to increase defense in the modern era, or an aqueduct to increase growth.

 

[sukritact]

The problem with town halls and town squares is they are more linked to governance (and therefore happiness), rather than science. (I actually considered public forums before settling with scriptoriums in my previous suggestion)

If you really think about it, places like those may be where people share ideas, but usually they are either just ideas related to the government and law or simply the news of the day. They never were centers of learning or scientific discovery.

The problem really is that there never were any people actively studying science for the sake of knowledge until the classical era. Before then science came as a by-product of religion or commerce.

 

[mitsho]

An Aequeduct is practically a sewer, so it's entirely within the range. Castle's were built after the Middle Ages, and now they were actually in the city, so it does make more sense... As for the Modern Age, you can just imagine them as more fortifications, it's not that big a stretch.

But yes, ideally, one wouldn't be able to build those buildings and instead later buildings would just automatically include the effects of the previous versions.

There's a clear link between Science and Government:
- People on the Town Square discuss the newest artistic developments, putting science points into Philosophy and Theology.
- People on the Town Square discussing the political side, allowing creative ideas to spring up.
- The Center Square is a place to conduct experiments, Gallileo throwing the apple from the Leaning Tower of Pisa, i.e.

I know it's a stretch, but so are most things in civ5.

 

[rfxmills]

Building a structure requires or , while population is just there, without any extra investment. It's similar in theory and subtly different in practice.

Changing from a population bonus to a flat bonus would buff wide empires and nerf tall empires - not the goal of this thread.

The goal of the thread was also to reward developed cities more than undeveloped, having a weak tier 1 science building as a prerequisite for the library which has per fits that goal better. Wide empires would need to build 2 buildings to get that extra per , which requires more build times and maintenance.

The latest big shake up of buildings moved Markets earlier. I liked the idea of reducing the power of early Markets and bringing them back to full strength at Currency. And doing something similar by giving Libraries a percentage boost at Printing Press.

 

[rfxmills]

You can link a stone circle to early astronomy at least. Scientific progress conducted at town halls or squares is, hmmm, limited? I believe there should be some governance buildings in the game, to battle corruption (I really miss this!), but not as science buildings.

 

[Txurce]

I liked the idea of reducing the power of early Markets and bringing them back to full strength at Currency. And doing something similar by giving Libraries a percentage boost at Printing Press.

YScientific progress conducted at town halls or squares is, hmmm, limited?

Agreed on both points - assuming libraries are flat until PP?

 

[Seek]

The biggest change I've noticed is that a two-city NC Lib/Trad rush is significantly delayed, which is probably good. The changes also make going for the GL a higher priority since free Library=no MH requirement to meet, which might be less good. But I've only been able to play about 50 turns with the changes so far.

 

[rfxmills]

Agreed on both points - assuming libraries are flat until PP?

I was thinking something along the lines of:

• Tier 1 building* at 4.
• Library 1 per . Then at Printing Press add 20% .
• Market +1 to luxury resources, merchant slot and 20% . Then at Currency add a further 30% (so 50% combined).

* I don't mind if it's a hall or circle, but I quite like the idea of a circle vs a monument as different ways of shaping your early development. And I think the changes to wonders Albie proposed are cool... Stonehenge spawning a mini-macchu pichu like wonder on grassland!

 

[gunnergoz]

With the emphasis being given villages under this variation, what will happen once G&K comes out? My impression is that villages are not even in it, though apparently "trading posts" are in the later game.
Now that I think about it, nothing need happen to UP/VE for those players who simply wish to play vanilla original Civ V...which presumably remains an option even if you buy the expansion.
Just got to wondering about it since I'm getting excited about the expansion, then my joy hit the brakes when I realized the implications on this mod.

 

[albie_123]

* I don't mind if it's a hall or circle, but I quite like the idea of a circle vs a monument as different ways of shaping your early development. And I think the changes to wonders Albie proposed are cool... Stonehenge spawning a mini-macchu pichu like wonder on grassland!

This is precisely why I suggested the Circle. While I do agree (to an extent ) that the Mentor's Hall is a historical feature of Civilizations throughout their development, monuments and stone circles represent the earliest ideas of a group: Whether they glorify their leaders, or look to the heavens. The idea of 'mentoring' almost seems like a social policy rather than a building.

My idea of changing the wonders was simply to increase early game choice, and for historical purposes: I think the idea of Stonehenge being a land-grab wonder is absurd, and another Improvement wonder is always fun.

 

[Txurce]

This is precisely why I suggested the Circle. While I do agree (to an extent ) that the Mentor's Hall is a historical feature of Civilizations throughout their development, monuments and stone circles represent the earliest ideas of a group: Whether they glorify their leaders, or look to the heavens. The idea of 'mentoring' almost seems like a social policy rather than a building.

My idea of changing the wonders was simply to increase early game choice, and for historical purposes: I think the idea of Stonehenge being a land-grab wonder is absurd, and another Improvement wonder is always fun.

Mentors' Hall works for me. The idea of a circle seems more fitting, but Stone Circles have little to do with it, since they were more about ceremony. That's why I suggested Teachers' or Philosophers' or Story Circle. Another would be Oral Tradition (but it sounds like a tech rather than a building).

Stonehenge's culture burst is theoretically behind its tile expansion, so it doesn't seem so absurd to me (not that I think it belongs there best).

 

[rfxmills]

Monuments and stone circles represent the earliest ideas of a group: Whether they glorify their leaders, or look to the heavens. The idea of 'mentoring' almost seems like a social policy rather than a building.

Mentors' Hall works for me. The idea of a circle seems more fitting, but Stone Circles have little to do with it, since they were more about ceremony. That's why I suggested Teachers' or Philosophers' or Story Circle. Another would be Oral Tradition (but it sounds like a tech rather than a building).

All of these solutions, mentoring, storytelling and monuments have holes in them as we're trying to shoehorn something into the ancient era for gameplay reasons were there isn't much of a case from a realism point of view which isn't tied to ritual or tradition.

I'm trying to rationalise stone circles as a mirror to the monuments. With the monuments your people are glorifying your leaders or gods to gain culture and the stone circles as proto-observatories with people trying to measure and predict the world around them to gain understanding.

My idea of changing the wonders was simply to increase early game choice, and for historical purposes: I think the idea of Stonehenge being a land-grab wonder is absurd, and another Improvement wonder is always fun.

Stonehenge's culture burst is theoretically behind its tile expansion, so it doesn't seem so absurd to me (not that I think it belongs there best).

If you buy into stone circles being proto-observatories, Stonehenge is effectively a great version of one of those and giving it a tile improvement that provides science fits better than a border expansion.

And creates a new interesting wonder effect and opens up the current Stonehenge effect to be transferred to a new wonder, enter...

The Luxor Obelisk which was inscribed with hieroglyphics exalting the reign of the Ramessess II who greatly expanding Egyptian borders, which seems a much better fit for a border expansion wonder to me.

 

[Txurce]

All of these solutions, mentoring, storytelling and monuments have holes in them as we're trying to shoehorn something into the ancient era for gameplay reasons were there isn't much of a case from a realism point of view which isn't tied to ritual or tradition.

The shoehorning is the creation of a standard building that probably didn't exist in all cultures. (That's why I prefer including the word "circle.") Poets and philosophers exchanging concepts via an oral tradition that was the precursor to institutionalized learning was a near-universal reality. Socrates is an example of this. His contributions are undeniable, and he came from a tradition old enough to consider writing destructive to the intellectual process.

If you buy into stone circles being proto-observatories...

The strong scientific consensus is that they were not. That's why for me they are a non-starter.

 

[mitsho]

You can link a stone circle to early astronomy at least. Scientific progress conducted at town halls or squares is, hmmm, limited?

How does a Stone Circle help the research of Iron Working, Trade or say Sailing?

 

[rfxmills]

Ok, working backwards. Stonehenge is a giant calendar, it is also a stone circle. Not all stone circles are calendars, but some are. They are also places that people could pass on knowledge via oral tradition.

How does a Stone Circle help the research of Iron Working, Trade or say Sailing?

Haha, I did say it should be a weak science building

 

[gunnergoz]

What the mentoring hut (or any of these suggestions for that matter) is supposed to represent is as much an idea as a building. The idea is that before the invention of writing, early peoples in all likelihood devised means to pass on skills, knowledge and abilities to members of their community in a more organized means than simply parent to child. There was probably some place in every settled human community where this passing on of knowledge was done, but we lack a common word for that place other than perhaps "mentors' place" or words to that effect. "Schools" came later, as did academies and such. So did scriptoriums and apprentice halls. So we have to wing it.

 

[Thalassicus]

Like gunnergoz said, the concept is the formalized verbal transfer of knowledge from one generation to the next. It's expressed by these words in different societies:

• mentorship
• elders
• pederasty
• discipleship
• apprenticing
• guru
• ...

There's no specific word for where this type of instruction takes place, so I picked a phrase that sounded nice. It's important we don't get too caught up in the name.

On a side note, why does a negative budget with plenty in the till lower science? What does one have to do with the other?

Research should only be affected when we have 0 gold stored and negative gold rate. If it's not working like that, it's a bug.

The latest big shake up of buildings moved Markets earlier. I liked the idea of reducing the power of early Markets and bringing them back to full strength at Currency.

I moved markets earlier for two reasons:

• It balances the reduction in village gold, so our overall gold supply isn't much lower.
• G&K expands the classical era to 2 columns, which places currency very far away from the early eras. There's buildings available in the ancient era for each of the other yields (granary, stable, library, monument, colosseum) and I feel it works better if gold has one too.

With the emphasis being given villages under this variation, what will happen once G&K comes out? My impression is that villages are not even in it, though apparently "trading posts" are in the later game.

I and others feel it was a bad decision by Firaxis to remove villages/tps from the first half of the game. It makes building improvements boring. I don't intend to adopt that change.

Stonehenge's culture burst is theoretically behind its tile expansion, so it doesn't seem so absurd to me (not that I think it belongs there best).

Stonehenge is the early Faith wonder in the expansion, which I kind of like. I haven't decided yet where to put the border expansion effect.

 

[Txurce]

Research should only be affected when we have 0 gold stored and negative gold rate. If it's not working like that, it's a bug.

It's working that way in a second straight game.

 

[Airny]

I think it's funny that we have 2 discussions in parallel here, although I am only interested in the village.
The village with is huge!
Buildings are not really a decision, you only have to think about when to build them but you will build mostly them anyways.
With a village, you occupy a tile for a long time (it doesnt make sense to switch around a lot) and therefor choose not to pick another improvement. That is what I call a real decision!
Population also is not a strategic decision until you are on your happiness limit and even then I dont have to weigh my options. If you are unhappy, try to get happy and in the meantime focus on production.

 

[Zaldron]

I was thinking something along the lines of:

• Tier 1 building* at 4.
• Library 1 per . Then at Printing Press add 20% .
• Market +1 to luxury resources, merchant slot and 20% . Then at Currency add a further 30% (so 50% combined).

If you give the tier 1 building a nice flat amount like that (I'd be ok with 1 flat and then a pop modifier) wide empires don't need to bother with libraries at all: Just ICS their way to victory. Wide science is already more powerful than tall, we don't need to widen the gap.