Scientology and Xenu

[FredLC]

Row, row, row your boat...

I fail to see your point here.

 

[ironduck]

Fred, I don't know what to tell you. You were outraged by the accusations, so I explained the basis of them. You are free to be outraged, but contrary to what you say the links I gave generally do provide easily verifiable sources to their claims - unlike the fake moon landing sites and whatever you want to compare them to. If you find links that are not valid you are welcome to make a note about it both here and to the authors of the websites. Unfortunately it appears that most of the anti-scientology websites are no longer updated. Probably because people got tired of the constant harrassment from scientology (which is very well documented and has been reported in mainstream news sources in case you don't believe that either).

There are, however, quite a few websites that expose scientology, you can google them yourself.

Of course scientology is not hyper-effective at taking over the world like you sarcastically comment. As I've stated over and over they prey on people who are vulnerable, just like other destructive cults. Most people are not in a position where they will fall prey, but that doesn't change the fact that those who do are victims.

So why are we focusing on scientology in this thread? Could it be because this thread is specifically about scientology and not jehova's witnesses or the moonies or some other insane cult? Feel free to start another thread about other cults that abuse people. You won't see me all outraged about that, quite the opposite.

And finally, I couldn't give a whit about hollywood celebrities being in this or that lunatic organization. And I don't care about the ridiculous writings of Hubbard - but I do reserve the right to make fun of it. All through this thread I have repeatedly stated that my beef is with their abuse of people, not with their silly science fiction stories.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

God turning a mud statue and a rib in the first human couple, IMHO.

Feel free to mock overdone literalism, but that's not basis for generalizing to all religion.

 

[FredLC]

Ironduck:

Well, I'm not outraged, sorry if I sounded that way. But I did feel I needed to emphasize why I came and posted something which may have looked as a defense of something I DO NOT defend - a mind-eating cult!

I understand your desire to poke fun on preposterous stuff. Such desire is one I share - like Aristoteles, I too like to make fun of ridiculous people. Should we sit on a bar and have a few beers, I probably would be laughting at them with you.

But in here, we are on a public arena, and as such, I felt the necessity to expose that poking fun of them, while respecting others which are not much better, is an incongruence. And a disrespect. I have the right to think whatever I want, but not to throw it in the faces of these people.

To be honest and perfectly truthful, my first impulse was to moderate the thread, and not accept it in here, on the same grounds that I don't accept people calling Islam a murderous religion, even though the recent skeletons some people are placing on its closet. But I figured out it would be misunderstood, and didn't want to sound as a moderating dictator. So I decided to debate my way throught this, instead of using brute force.

Still, of course I was somewhat ironic in the reply. But think of it - aren't you conceding too much power to the cult, with that hability to render people so defenseless with brainwashing techniques?

I tell you what. I'll look for some info on scientology and it's history of crime, ok? I'll seek myself for credible working sources on that because, you see, that particular ones did not look credible.

In the end, what I have seen here so far was a bunch of people which apparently have little and indirect information on scientology calling them criminals without pointing evidence and mocking their faith without anyone here to defend or explain their believes. An entire forum of people tapping each other backs on how funny it is to debase a believe system.

I don't like actions like these either against christianism or on islam, but like it even less on Scientology because it's completely defenseless here - no one to explain their case - and because as it's partially secluded, chances are that none of us really knows what we are talking about.

You don't know what to say? Well, I do. What I say is that I hope that now you can see what I am actually defending here. Think Voltaire.

Regards .

 

[FredLC]

Feel free to mock overdone literalism, but that's not basis for generalizing to all religion.

Indeed, but you think that Xemu hypnotizing souls from outer space was any less of a missrepresentation?

 

[ironduck]

Fred, I looked into scientology years ago and basically just restated what I found back then after researching it and listening to testimonies of quite a few people who had been in scientology, as well as the official scientologist pr people taking the other side. My knowledge is not only based on the websites I linked to. I also know someone in scientology.

I'm really not interested in going all over it again and was leery of joining the thread for that reason, but I wanted to raise the red flag that they are more than just a ridiculous organisation - they cause a lot of harm.

I have no respect for organizations that are abusive as I have found them to be. Therefore I have no qualms mocking them in public. I understand why you want fairness, but when it comes to the top dogs in scientology this is like asking for fairness when accusing the mafia of being a criminal, oppressive organization.

Btw, I'm not as ignorant of law as you may think.

 

[FredLC]

If you acuse mafia people of being criminals and have no proof, you may be processed. So be careful with your words.

You probably know scientology better than me. And I am prepared to assume that you know the law of your nation better than me - I know that of mine. But the idea that all that a person need is a good lawyer and he/she can do most anything without suffering consequences is not accurate at all.

The failures in the legal system allow for it to happen but it usually involves a combination of political power, preparations, good representation yes, and, above all, acts that can be disguised as borderline.

An organization that sytematically beats up people commits an act of such kind that no amount of representation can possibly protects them. And I'm not speaking of scientology. None could get away with it.

Regards .

 

[ironduck]

If you acuse mafia people of being criminals and have no proof, you may be processed. So be careful with your words.

Ummm.. I've yet to meet anyone who didn't realize that the mafia (as a general term, since it's has spread) is a criminal organization. To mention a more specific one we could say the Camorra, for instance. It is well known that the various mafia organizations in Italy are criminal and commit murder. There have been enough convictions to state that the mafia is a criminal organization without doubt. Top politicians and judges that fight the mafia have said so in public as well. I'm not sure why I should be careful - I'm not afraid of getting killed or sued by a mafia organization for saying this because it's very well known.

But the idea that all that a person need is a good lawyer and he/she can do most anything without suffering consequences is not accurate at all.

Unfortunately there are many examples of how the legal system has proven itself inadequate in the US which is the stronghold of scientology. I'm sure you're familiar with several of the more high profile cases where the defense invoked a number of technical issues that helped get the defendant off the hook.

An organization that sytematically beats up people commits an act of such kind that no amount of representation can possibly protects them. And I'm not speaking of scientology. None could get away with it.

The various criminal organizations such as the mafia and the triads continue to murder people, they are very, very difficult to disintegrate. Is scientology in this league? Not even close. This is merely to show that organized crime is extremely hard to get rid of. Ironically, it's usually best to attack them on tax issues. This was also partly attempted with scientology, but they raided the IRS and destroyed all evidence.

 

[FredLC]

Ummm.. I've yet to meet anyone who didn't realize that the mafia (as a general term, since it's has spread) is a criminal organization. To mention a more specific one we could say the Camorra, for instance. It is well known that the various mafia organizations in Italy are criminal and commit murder. There have been enough convictions to state that the mafia is a criminal organization without doubt. Top politicians and judges that fight the mafia have said so in public as well. I'm not sure why I should be careful - I'm not afraid of getting killed or sued by a mafia organization for saying this because it's very well known.

Yeah, that's why I excepted that only if you did it without proof.

The reason why you won't see me take a stand for justice with mafia as beneficiary is because there is such proof regarding it.

Unfortunately there are many examples of how the legal system has proven itself inadequate in the US which is the stronghold of scientology. I'm sure you're familiar with several of the more high profile cases where the defense invoked a number of technical issues that helped get the defendant off the hook.

Law is FAR from perfect, with that much I agree, and technicalities are indeed a escape route in several ocasions. As I said, i'm not one to be blind to the obvious.

But technicalities are only effective if you have some elasticity to apply it. What that means is that if there was evidence as abundant and irrefutable of the criminal acts of the Scientologists as there is of the mafia, they wouldn't still enjoy an appearence of legality - just like mafia don't.

The various criminal organizations such as the mafia and the triads continue to murder people, they are very, very difficult to disintegrate. Is scientology in this league? Not even close. This is merely to show that organized crime is extremely hard to get rid of. Ironically, it's usually best to attack them on tax issues. This was also partly attempted with scientology, but they raided the IRS and destroyed all evidence.

They haven't learned Al Capone's lesson?

You see, the reason why Mafia is hard to disintegrate is because it's very underground. Usually bosses are known by the law enforcement forces, but they hide their connections and it's hard to link their names with the activities they employ.

As far as I know, Scientology leaders do not hide their linkage. This makes them very easy to prosecute should a single criminal action of the "organization" get proven, what is quite untrue regarding mafia. In other words, it's a monster head which is much easier to cut off if it gives reason.

Regards .

 

[ironduck]

They haven't learned Al Capone's lesson?

Nope, they're still pretty dumb (scientology was smarter that way, raiding the IRS and destroying all their own evidence Enron-style..). In this country Bandidos and Hell's Angels were not taken effectively care of until the past couple of years when the tax guys began a massive criminal investigation. The regular methods of finding proof for drug and weapon trade, violence, and their other crimes was completely ineffective.

You see, the reason why Mafia is hard to disintegrate is because it's very underground. Usually bosses are known by the law enforcement forces, but they hide their connections and it's hard to link their names with the activities they employ.

Scientology is very closed about their dirty activities, that's why they spend so much money on lawsuits. Everytime people expose some of their secrets they go to great lengths to harrass and sue them (for breach of 'copyright' usually). The problem with closed cults that commit crimes against its members is that it's almost impossible to get evidence since everyone covers over everyone else and the victim is left completely isolated.

The way I see it, the reason that cults like scientology are not the target of major criminal investigation of organized crime is that almost everything happens inside the cult, it's much less obvious than when the mafia guns down 10 people in a street in Palermo.

 

[FredLC]

I know all that, and the different criminal scope being evoked here calls for an more sensible approach, exactly because its intravenous. But if there is such a strong evidence of criminal activities, there should not be too hard for, say, the FBI to infiltrate agents and collect evidence.

They do so, and quite steadly, in organizations that are, as you have agreed, in another criminal league compared to Scientology.

Regards .

 

[ironduck]

I'm afraid most cults pass below the interest of FBI.. unless they're the suicidal kind that end in a big brawl..

 

[The Last Conformist]

@FredLC: Kindly read the post of mine from this thread I've reproduced below:

Amusing indeed, but wacky as the Scientologist account of human origins is, I don't quite think it deserves comparison with YECism.

I don't think your accusation we're mocking Scientology while letting other, similar, cases off the hook is fair - this being a thread about Scientology -, but more importantly it isn't true. I've lashed out against stupid beliefs in other religions in this very thread.

Also, I think you need to check up the meaning of "scatology".


Back on topic, it appears that Scientology in Germany is under the surveilance of the Verfassungsschutz as an organization that "wants to abolish or restrict human rights and basic laws".


Leading Scientologist McShane's testimony to a Swedish court concerning the Scientologist materials - including the Xenu story - that were handed in to Swedish authorities and made public for a while. His testimony makes clear that top-level Scientologists consider the material legit. IOW, this should dispel any doubt that Xenu indeed is Scientologist doctrine.

 

[ironduck]

In case someone is interested in more scientology info, I'll add this to TLC's links:

The official word from the Verfassungsschutz in case the other link that they're under surveilance is not considered valid: http://www.verfassungsschutz.de/de/arbeitsfelder/af_scientology/

And a very long read regarding the Fishman affidavit and the Spaink and Zenon cases that revolve around the Fishman affidavit. Fishman used the classified scientology material in his court case, thereby making it public and exposing the whole Xenu thing to the world. http://www.spaink.net/fishman/home.html

 

[FredLC]

Also, I think you need to check up the meaning of "scatology".

I know the unpleasent meaning which you are referring to, TLC.

It's that the term "scatology", in portuguese, has two meanings:

One is that you are referring to.

The other, means "doctrine describing the fate of humanity and of the world, which can present itself in profetical or apocalyptical discourse".

I assumed that this dichotomy would hold true in english as well, but, after checking the Merrian-webster, I've seen no mention of the sense in which I used it, so i'm guessing its a false cognate.

Anyway, for the rest of your points, I'll address later, it's past midnight here and i'm not in much of a writing mood.

Regards .

Edit: The term I wanted, in english, is eschatology. They both translate the same to portuguese (escatologia), so that is the source of my confusion.

Edit 2: These links are in german, I can't read'em. Any english version of that site avaiable?

 

[ironduck]

I can't find the scientology stuff in English, but here's the English part of the site - http://www.verfassungsschutz.de/en/index_en.html