Scions Balance?

[mo123567]

You could make the creepers have 0 movement, but a self-only haste spell. Then when one spawns you won't be notified at all really, but anytime that you want to move one around which you see on the field you can select it manually, make it mobile, then move to where you want to be and fortify.

Great idea. I'd love to see this implemented. Also, it would be nice if the notification of creeper progress was removed from the top of the screen.

My creeper count in my current game is now above 2500.

 

[WarKirby]

My creeper count in my current game is now above 2500.

Wow.

I could see this causing a lot of slowdown actually.

 

[KillerClowns]

Playing a game as the Illians, against the Scions, I have only two words to say: Life Mana.
Two magi with Life II and my Priests of Winter raining down Ice Elementals literally obliterated three Stacks of Doom. Half of them fell simply due to Banishment.
Thankfully, the AI would never think up such a tactic for games where I'm the Scions, but... do the Scions have a way of not being annihilated the second a few Life II magi enter the battle? The Amurites seem like a particularly harsh threat here, being able to field quite a few magi.

 

[ICanHasName?]

Centeni and Korinna the Red should be able to stand up to banish. Also the goblins and orc warriors you should have been capturing with your priests, and umm, summons I guess. So yea I guess Scions are hard countered by that, allthough Centeni are so cheap you could almost use them like Thralls.

Edit: Can banish still kill?

 

[Tarquelne]

Playing a game as the Illians, against the Scions, I have only two words to say: Life Mana.

Undead are even more vulnerable to it than Demons. (50% vulnerability rather than 25%.) Maybe damage should be adjusted.

Corpus I's "Draw Strength" helps a little. It might be necessary to give the Scions an extra defense of some sort.
(OTOH, they have some other immunities. OTTH, having Life Mana always be the clear choice for Scion counter is a little boring. If they could develop greater resistance but had to work for it... I think that'd be good. (Permanently "burn" a Death mana node for a +% resistance promo for all units? Or sacrifice 750 Creepers?)

What's the most damaging level-2 spell against living units? How much damage does it do?

 

[WarKirby]

I don't think weakening Life II is a good idea. It's essential for fighting back the ridiculously overpowered demonic armies that xienwolf refuses to nerf >.>

I think just giving scions some sort of inbuilt resistance to that spell would be best.

 

[Tarquelne]

Edit: Can banish still kill?

No. 50% damage limit.

I don't think weakening Life II is a good idea. It's essential for fighting back the ridiculously overpowered demonic armies that xienwolf refuses to nerf >.>

I think just giving scions some sort of inbuilt resistance to that spell would be best.

That's what I was thinking - by "adjust" I was thinking at least compensate for their greater vulnerability to it. But, still, ideally they would do something to earn the resistance.

I won't be doing any more Creeper adjustments 'till after the next patch is, with the beefed-up spells/stats, is released. Except, perhaps:

Some sort of limit on auto-creeper spawning.
A diplo-penalty for Arawn's Dust.

 

[deadliver]

I don't like having to micromanage the creation of Haunted Lands either. I agree it could be cool that you can construct seeds which spread HL.

 

[Tarquelne]

I don't like having to micromanage the creation of Haunted Lands either. I agree it could be cool that you can construct seeds which spread HL.

Did you see this? From a page or few back:

Passive HL generation:

It's still unit based, which I think a strong "plus." But the association between the units and the HL tiles might now be too obscure.

Based on # of Ghostwalkers, Haunts, and Redactors you have. A Haunt counts as 2 Ghostwalkers, a Redactor as 4. The Black Lady doubles the total.

Total * .15% chance for Forest, Jungle, Ancient Forest to transform into HL.
Total * .1% for Plains, Grassland, Floodplain, Wetland.
Total * .05% for Desert.

The checks are independent: A Floodplain will get the .1% and the .05% check, for example.

HL tiles will only appear within your borders. And only if you're Scions.

I very much expect future adjustments to the figures. (If not the whole system.)

Ghostwalkers and Redactors retain their ability to "plant" HL where you wish, thought the GW's time has moved from 4 to 6 turns.

Creepers:
Arawn's Dust works on Camps, too, and has no chance of failure.
Fed Creepers won't cause war if they "take root" in a rival's territory.
Resistance Roll on Burrowing Thorns moved from +10 to -10.
Rooted Creeper's stats generally boosted.

Reduced population/Reborn from captured/razed cities:

Population of captured cities reduced slightly. (About 13%.)
Reborn gained from razed cities reduced by 1. (It's cumulative with the above change.)[/quote]

 

[KillerClowns]

No. 50% damage limit.

Huh, just checked; it does. That makes it a bit more reasonable, although I could've sworn I saw it do lethal damage... maybe I'm just going crazy.

 

[far_wanderer]

What's the most damaging level-2 spell against living units? How much damage does it do?

It appears to be Ring of Flames at 20% with a cap of 40%(not counting Tsunami). Part of the reason Banishment is so deadly is that you don't have to worry about innocent bystanders, which is a limiting tactical factor with all the other damaging spells.
(On a quasi-related note, while browsing through the civilopedia spell descriptions I note that "Grand Ward" appears to be a level 3 self-debuff. Since I know it does something good, that should probably go on the short list for 'pedia updates.)

I don't think weakening Life II is a good idea. It's essential for fighting back the ridiculously overpowered demonic armies that xienwolf refuses to nerf >.>

I think just giving scions some sort of inbuilt resistance to that spell would be best.

I agree. Not counting the Scions, Banishment is right about where it should be in terms of power vs. usefulness. Should the Scions even be affected by Banishment in the first place? My understanding was that part of their point was that they were a wholly different kind of undead from the necromantic variety. If that's an accurate assessment, Scions should really lose both the holy damage vulnerability and the unholy damage resistance.

 

[Tarquelne]

It appears to be Ring of Flames at 20% with a cap of 40%(not counting Tsunami). Part of the reason Banishment is so deadly is that you don't have to worry about innocent bystanders, which is a limiting tactical factor with all the other damaging spells.

(On a quasi-related note, while browsing through the civilopedia spell descriptions I note that "Grand Ward" appears to be a level 3 self-debuff. Since I know it does something good, that should probably go on the short list for 'pedia updates.)

Thanks. Hmm... a 10 higher cap isn't so bad... if you forget about the 50% vulnerability.

The "strategy" entry for the Grand Ward spell explains what it does.

Should the Scions even be affected by Banishment in the first place? My understanding was that part of their point was that they were a wholly different kind of undead from the necromantic variety. If that's an accurate assessment, Scions should really lose both the holy damage vulnerability and the unholy damage resistance.

"Banishment" used to be "Destroy Undead", which explains a lot of the reason why Undead are affected. The Scions are supposed to be different, though, given what we know of magic (approx. nil) there's no particular background/fluff reason Scions need to be affected by the spell - they already bend if not break the Lore for Undead. But I'd rather change Banishment than remove the holy/unholy resistances.

OTOH, that'd be an overall nerf? Last time I saw commentary on the subject it was agreed (by whatever 3 posters were talking) that Holy damage was less common. That wouldn't be so bad.

 

[Valkrionn]

Honestly, it WOULD be a nerf..... Although one that I wouldn't mind at all. I see no reason for the Infernals to be any less a threat to the Scions then anyone else. Plus, it would help out Mailbox's Legion.

 

[liposuction]

I know, Scion having balance issues, who could have ever guessed?</SARCASM> Anyways, the way it worked out when we started was these pantheons. No single pantheon was banned, the players just gravitated towards those. I don't want to rework it a lot, since I'm already doing a lot.

 

[far_wanderer]

"Banishment" used to be "Destroy Undead", which explains a lot of the reason why Undead are affected. The Scions are supposed to be different, though, given what we know of magic (approx. nil) there's no particular background/fluff reason Scions need to be affected by the spell - they already bend if not break the Lore for Undead. But I'd rather change Banishment than remove the holy/unholy resistances.

OTOH, that'd be an overall nerf? Last time I saw commentary on the subject it was agreed (by whatever 3 posters were talking) that Holy damage was less common. That wouldn't be so bad.

A brief run through the civilopedia actually indicates that holy damage is quite common. However, unholy damage shows up a lot more on the things that you fight regularly. Most of the units that deal holy damage are priests, and thus less likely to be combat threats, whereas unholy damage shows up more on combat units like Stygian Guards. Angels are the other main source, and it's actually quite easy for the Risen Emperor to get along with Basium. Hyborem on the other hand is always a threat, because hell terrain replaces haunted lands and the Risen Emperor can't shift out of neutral alignment. I believe you also get unholy damage from the Four Horsemen, and the Scions already have a leg up on Armageddon thanks to death immunity and Fallow.
So yes, I think it would be a nerf. At the very least, it would make it more difficult for me to spawn-camp Hyborem with the Black Lady.

While you're at it, I highly suggest a change to Glory Everlasting and Divine Retribution as well.

 

[KillerClowns]

Here's an idea: some method of the Scions earning a promotion, let's call it "sanctified," which requires Way of the Wise and grants them some form of immunity/resistance to Holy Damage, and maybe gives -1 physical attack/defense and +1 holy attack/defense. Could be an ordinary promo requiring Undead, or be granted to a certain unit type, or maybe even come in the form of some kind of Scions-only equipment.

 

[deadliver]

Did you see this? From a page or few back:

Sure did. Saw something about seeding HL thats what I was replying to

 

[Sarisin]

Apologies for the dumb question, but it has been awhile since I played the Scions.

Just how do you get Korinna the Protector. I am playing with her as the leader and it seemed like in the past she was created when I started my game, but couldn't move.

Now...nothing.

I read all the info in the Civilopedia and there wasn't anything there to help me.

Thank you.

 

[WarKirby]

Just how do you get Korinna the Protector.

You don't.

I am playing with her as the leader

This is why


You get The Risen Emperor instead.

 

[Valkrionn]

Each Scion leader has a different hero. If you play as The Risen Emperor, you get Korinna as a hero in the beginning. If you play as Korinna, you get The Emperor as a hero with... Strength of Will I think?