Scions Balance?

[Tarquelne]

For waht I know now about Scion (I play 2 games with them now) if you take the red/black lady Korinna as civ leader then you can have a religion, but there is some builddings and units you cant have like the Doomsayers and Temples of the Gift.

Yep. The buildings/units you can't get as K. represent the Scion's state religion. It only flourishes under the R.E.

I am still not sure what to do about Haunted lands. This area seem to be still in developement and I notice a bug when an adept casted Sanctify near one such Haunted land.

Next patch Dispell magic will remove HL. So subtract one bug... hopefully another won't be added.

and I don't know if Tarq is going to revert the change or not.

It'll be reverted, along with a couple of minor adjustments.

 

[WarKirby]

Sanctify makes more sense than dispel magic, I'd say.

how about just making sanctify less reliable. Instead of just removing HL from a 3x3 tile grid, it could have a 40% CHANCE per affected tile to remove HL. That would take a lot more time and work to reverse the scions' work.


I'd say the same for hell terrain too actually, though maybe more like 80%. But sanctify feels like a pretty cheap spell in general because of it's effectiveness.

 

[Rutee]

I agree with the idea of Sanctify not auto-removing Haunted Lands from a 3x3 tile. Dispel maybe, but Sanctify is a tier 1 spell, and plopping HL down in a 3x3 tile is reserved for Tier 4 units. Or something to make it much harder to do in Scions' territory.

Are Ghostwalkers/Corinna the Black Lady supposed to count as not having moved when they become Haunts? It's like Free Blitz, when I get REAL blitz...

 

[far_wanderer]

Regarding the main issue of Awakened/Reborn spawn, why not make them only for population, and bring back settlers for founding cities? That way, regardless of your spawn rate, you still have to devote some production time to new cities. If you're really lucky, you still won't get new cities without losing some build time, and if you're really unlucky you can still build more cities to try and bring the spawn rate up. This would also allow One-City-Challenge players to build Reborn manually, and not have to depend on war. (Speaking of OCC, Melante is completely useless in this mode).

I also spotted this:

One thing that could be done to homogenise starts has been discussed before: Removing the difference between terrain types for scions.

It seems wrong that scions really want everything to be plains. Sand, ice or grass, why would undead care?

And now, as far as I understand it, the infrastructure for such a change is in place.

Make all terrain types yield 1 , like plains. Or, if that's too strong, make plains yield no at all.

What about making Haunted Lands a base terrain instead of a feature? It would help to solve this problem, make the HL vs. Hell terrain conflict a bit clearer, and as an added bonus allow haunted forests and jungles.

 

[Mylon]

It would make more sense if the scions preferred desert. It preserves their undead flesh quite well. Maybe each food a tile produces means one less hammer. Grasslands, since they would not go into negatives, would still make good spots for towns, but at which point the people are living almost entirely indoors.

 

[Rutee]

Workers can clear Haunted Lands? You know, uh, I don't think magic should be able to touch it then >.>

Objectively speaking, it takes what, a Tier 3 unit 4 turns and a mid-tier tech to pop a Haunted Lands? A Tier 0 unit clearing it away in 5 or 6 turns is a little lame, but much better then just utterly demolishing the place with Magic, especially since if you actually have haunted lands, you probably used Magic to get them anyway.

Also, I'd like to confirm that the promotion that's for Creepers and Martyrs of the Emperor is DEFINITELY not working, but the 0 Maintenance one for Jotnar Thralls (It's a pity I've taken a shine to the ones htat don't work in multi..) is, so if fixing the Poison Soaked one fails, you have another option.

 

[Tarquelne]

Also, I'd like to confirm that the promotion that's for Creepers and Martyrs of the Emperor is DEFINITELY not working, but the 0 Maintenance one for Jotnar Thralls (It's a pity I've taken a shine to the ones htat don't work in multi..) is, so if fixing the Poison Soaked one fails, you have another option.

Are you playing with the latest patch? I just checked the Creepers and I'm not seeing any unit maint. cost. And I haven't checked, but I'd also thought the "blitz" bug fixed. Did you get multiple attacks?
EDIT: I guess you must be using a least a recent patch to have the Jotnar. How did you determine the Creepers/Martyrs are having a maint. cost? I started a game and created a dozen or so Scouts and Creepers, then played around with deleting them. I saw only the Scouts make a dif. in unit cost.

EDIT#2: I see what you mean about Korrina/Haunt. It'll be changed.

 

[WarKirby]

Are you playing with the latest patch? I just checked the Creepers and I'm not seeing any unit maint. cost. And I haven't checked, but I'd also thought the "blitz" bug fixed. Did you get multiple attacks?
EDIT: I guess you must be using a least a recent patch to have the Jotnar. How did you determine the Creepers/Martyrs are having a maint. cost? I started a game and created a dozen or so Scouts and Creepers, then played around with deleting them. I saw only the Scouts make a dif. in unit cost.

That's not what he means. He's saying the 0 maintenance cost is fine. The Poison Drenched promotion isn't working. Apparently not always killing the target.

To be honest, it seems like it'd be horribly overpowered if it did work.


Another question. What are creepers really for? I was looking forward to spreading Haunted Lands with them, but they're a pitiful str2 defensive only unit, that has to kill something before they can create a haunted lands tile. What are they useful for?

 

[Rutee]

EDIT: I guess you must be using a least a recent patch to have the Jotnar. How did you determine the Creepers/Martyrs are having a maint. cost? I started a game and created a dozen or so Scouts and Creepers, then played around with deleting them. I saw only the Scouts make a dif. in unit cost.

Lemme reload and check the patch and such.

Hm, I can't check the patch, just says 050 on the About this Build and the like. And it turns out, it wasn't creepers. When Martyrs were costing me maintenance despite tool tips (And I just checked, and I'm very sure that Martyrs are costing maintenance, since it went under unit cost), I just assumed Poison Drenched wasn't quite working properly.

That's not what he means. He's saying the 0 maintenance cost is fine. The Poison Drenched promotion isn't working. Apparently not always killing the target.

No, he got it right. I thought the 0 Maintenance was supposed to come from Poisoned Drenched. I thought the "Kill as they are destroyed" was just poetic.

Another question. What are creepers really for? I was looking forward to spreading Haunted Lands with them, but they're a pitiful str2 defensive only unit, that has to kill something before they can create a haunted lands tile. What are they useful for?

They technically only have to survive, actually. I noticed that when one withdrew from a Lizard, and had Fed. But they will spread it, just achingly slowly. It seems to take like 35 turns or so for a random number of Haunted Lands to spawn creepers. Then it takes 15 turns to go from Young to Mature, 20 or 30 to go from Mature to Blooming, and 10 to go from Blooming to Rooted. At Rooted, they automatically get Fed, so you can spread them that way. But.. yeah, just research Rangers and use them as gimpy archers at Rooted, that seems to be their only real use. Especially since Themoch can handle your advance scouting for you.

 

[Tarquelne]

When Martyrs were costing me maintenance despite tool tips (And I just checked, and I'm very sure that Martyrs are costing maintenance, since it went under unit cost), I just assumed Poison Drenched wasn't quite working properly.

Ok - I'm giving Martyrs "Free Unit." (It's a promotion I made awhile ago (I can tell because the button colors aren't quite right) that I'd thought removed.)

Creepers: I think they're handy for keeping watch (free, disposable), but I generally use them up attacking another civ's food supply.

The next version of creepers will allow Fed Creepers to create HL in another civ's territory without causing war, the spells for Mature and Blooming will be more potent (anyone remember these?), and the Rooted Creeper promo itself is stronger.

EDIT: Haunt/Korrina change - If she hasn't attacked yet in a turn she can change to Haunt, and also attack. She can never attack in a turn after changing from Haunt-form.

 

[mo123567]

In my current game, I have over 2000 creepers. I have them on every tile in my empire. Every turn I spend a few minutes fortifying the new ones. There are much better ways to spread haunted lands so I just figured they were there to slow down and weaken invaders. I've had a fairly peaceful game so they have just gotten out of hand. Is there a way to make the new ones auto fortify?

 

[Deamon]

Are the awakened spawn rates affected by playing in a team(mp game)? I always seem to have much worse "luck" with them in mp.. :/

 

[xienwolf]

You could make the creepers have 0 movement, but a self-only haste spell. Then when one spawns you won't be notified at all really, but anytime that you want to move one around which you see on the field you can select it manually, make it mobile, then move to where you want to be and fortify.

 

[Mylon]

Are the awakened spawn rates affected by playing in a team(mp game)? I always seem to have much worse "luck" with them in mp.. :/

You can get the scions to be playable in multiplayer? I had to edit the code to prevent OOS errors.

 

[ICanHasName?]

You could make the creepers have 0 movement, but a self-only haste spell. Then when one spawns you won't be notified at all really, but anytime that you want to move one around which you see on the field you can select it manually, make it mobile, then move to where you want to be and fortify.

Thats a great idea. Less micromanagement without less functionality.

 

[Deon]

Another question. What are creepers really for? I was looking forward to spreading Haunted Lands with them, but they're a pitiful str2 defensive only unit, that has to kill something before they can create a haunted lands tile. What are they useful for?

You can create HL with them without killing anything, just wait. Also you can destroy enemy farms.

 

[WarKirby]

You can create HL with them without killing anything, just wait.

Yes. Wait. A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG Time. Doesn't it take about 45 turns for them to turn into rooted creepers?

I only managed to get a single one to that point (from korinna), before I just researched animal handling and spammed ghostwalkers everywhere. I'd like to see the maturity time significantly reduced, to make them more useful.

Also you can destroy enemy farms.

I can destroy enemy farms with horsemen too. They can also destroy mines,, roads, workshops,windmills, etc, AND They can escape to do it again another day.

Having a creeper sacrifice it's life to destroy something that can be rebuilt in 4 turns, and which almost any unit can do without sacrificing itself, doesn't seem a very useful ability.

I think they'd be more useful if they could use this, and burrowing thorns, without sacrificing themselves. At str 2, they're not exactly hard to actually kill. Even a warrior can do it. so why not let them wreak havok until the enemy actually does something about it.

As a side note, they lose access to arawn's dust when they gain burrowing thorns. And likewise, they lose that when they gain the ability to make haunted lands. It'd be nice for them to accumulate these abilites, and be able to permanantly use them all once they've matured enough





Also, xienwolf's idea is awesome for less micromanagement.

 

[Tarquelne]

I can destroy enemy farms with horsemen too.

Creepers cost no hammers, no gold, and don't require Open Borders or a war. They don't require any build-time in a city. You can have your horsemen AND Creepers.

Having a creeper sacrifice it's life to destroy something that can be rebuilt in 4 turns, and which almost any unit can do without sacrificing itself, doesn't seem a very useful ability.

Used with a little co-ordination you can cost a city several pop points. Plus disrupt trade deals.

They destroy pastures and plantations, too. And soon camps, and with greater reliability. All for no hammers, no gold, and without Open Borders or a war.

Also, xienwolf's idea is awesome for less micromanagement.

Assuming you don't want to move them, yes. A toggle would be much better.

 

[Mylon]

Alternately, HL could spread automatically and creepers done away with.

They destroy pastures and plantations, too. And soon camps, and with greater reliability. All for no hammers, no gold, and without Open Borders or a war.

That sounds a bit like an exploit. If a player sees creepers destroying his countryside and he's not at war, he knows who to declare war on.

 

[WarKirby]

I didn't realise creepers could pillage without a declaration of war. That changes things a little, but it still doesn't make them that useful.

It's pretty much screwed in a multiplayer game, since it's entirely obvious who the creepers belong to. Hopefully xienwolf's plan for HN ai will include things like this.

I'm not a fan of removing creepers entirely, I like the idea of having these evil plant things that trap unwary visitors. But I think they're rather pointlessly underpowered at the moment, and not a great deal of use.

it'd be nice to see their strength increase with each level. to 3/5/6 respectively, so they'd be more capable of surviving a battle. Being defensive only