Scions documentation

[HadesScorn]

First off, wow. Thanks for this incredible mod-mod (-mod?). I grabbed the latest FF the day it came out, and have been tooling around with the Scions ever since. To my shame, I haven't played much past mid-game as I keep learning more about early strategy and starting over from scratch. However, a few thoughts:

Population Mechanic:
Pros: Hands down the best mechanic for a fallow race. I love the current modifiers and the question of where to expand and where to invest the few pop I get. I tend to play long, drawn out builder games, and the sensation of building up a city of Reborn is fantastic. Also, the fact that Muris Clan Goblins no longer requires a reload to try and skip is an added bonus.
Cons: Flavor. This is mainly the result of events, not the intended mechanic. "Your city has been struck by a wasting disease, -1 pop" is the worst offender. Can someone add in a new option for the Scions that allows them to avoid this pop loss? Another perplexing one is River of Blood- what on earth would the Calabim feed on?

Heroes:
Pros: All innovative. On my last game I was stealing population regularly with Pelemoc from my neighbor who finally [roughly 12 population in] decided to declare war. To my surprise, he had a massive army I had not accounted to just returning from war with the Sheaim. Mayhem ensued.
Cons: Alcinus. I've read through this thread on the different methods of dealing with him. I tend to avoid the Recon Line, so if he vanishes after I make the DC I just ignore his loss. After all, I can build non-crazy Archmages just fine. Tracking him down where-ever he may be on the globe does not appeal to me. Two thoughts on improving his functionality.
-Reduce/eliminate his bonus promotions. On my last playthrough I decided to abuse Random Seed and just kept killing/loading till I kept him. This resulted in a comically advanced Alcinus very early on. Obviously, in a non-abuse game the two promotions are less of a concern, but still a decided advantage to both Scions and a Human player who gets him.
-Eliminate the function of the Emperor's Daggers in tracking and killing him. For one, this prevents the frustration of having tracked to KotE early to free Karina and losing Alcinus the next turn. Instead, make a ritual which has the same function. It would be available when Alcinus is in existence but is not owned by the player, and would increase in cost with each tech which allows a higher tier Alcinus. This would allow you to regain him with a minimum of micromanaging [Is he here? No, how about there? Wait, a unit stack went by and back into shroud, was he with them?]. Balance wise, it helps a human player who receives Alcinus to know roughly how many turns he might have control of the mage. Flavor wise, the ritual would represent gathering the resources needed to send out assassins world-wide, with the increasing cost representing Alcinus' increasing power and desire to escape Scion control.

UB:
Thaumaturge's Keep: Fantastic. I would like to see a bit more balancing on all the buildings though. I like Military Abattoir's balance, and that of some of the negative mana types.
All Gift/Cult Buildings: Great for flavor and mechanic.

UU:
Haven't played around a ton yet, but I enjoy access to early defensive units.

Things I'd like to see:
-Some kind of bonus associated with Remnants of Patria. It is, after all, the most logically associated UF for the Scions. Maybe a one time bonus of Reborn when your cultural borders include the Remnants? I'm thinking of how Letum Frigus gives a bonus for the Amurites and Illians.

 

[JayThomas]

Population Mechanic:
Cons: Flavor. This is mainly the result of events, not the intended mechanic. "Your city has been struck by a wasting disease, -1 pop" is the worst offender. Can someone add in a new option for the Scions that allows them to avoid this pop loss? Another perplexing one is River of Blood- what on earth would the Calabim feed on?

I've dialed out the Calibim and Malakim on my Erebus maps. The Calabim for your stated reason and the Malakim so they don't take a desert spot. Seems if they are in the game, my Scions wind up in a lush grassland area.

I've been enjoying the Scions very much.

 

[deadliver]

Egads I hate it when the Calabim river of blood my cities, losing two per city is a big loss and quite annoying.

 

[Valkrionn]

Agreed, although seeing as the Calabim technically use the souls of victims to maintain themselves, and the whole blood thing is just for kicks, I guess it works on the Undead too, or at least the Scions version.

 

[deadliver]

Good point. Now get back to work on your mod mod *whip whip*

edit: err I guess thats really mod mod mod?

 

[Tarquelne]

The Scions do lose less pop from River!... Of!... BLOOOOD!

1 less, IIRC.

 

[deadliver]

I guess they are getting a taste of their own medicine, losing population through the actions of another nefarious group.

 

[xienwolf]

Could set a check in River of Blood to skip Fallow cities. Makes sense for both cases

 

[HadesScorn]

Would it be possible to also set it for the disease event? That one feels even weirder than losing them to river of blood.

 

[cyther]

Why? I get sick all the time.

 

[hbar]

Could set a check in River of Blood to skip Fallow cities. Makes sense for both cases

I think the logic is that there are living people in Scions' cities that wait on the undead (and I thought I've had crappy jobs) so that could be where the blood is coming from. That said, I doubt those servants are where the real population is coming from. Would it be hard to change the effect from a loss of population to some temporary unhappiness?

 

[Tarquelne]

Cons: Flavor. This is mainly the result of events, not the intended mechanic. "Your city has been struck by a wasting disease, -1 pop" is the worst offender.

I believe I zapped *a* disease event as of patch E/F. There may be more than one. If anyone sees one make a note of the text message received and post it in the bug thread.

what on earth would the Calabim feed on?

This has been discussed some above already - I'll add that early (pre Necropolis) cities have significant populations of living beings. Somebody's got to take out the trash.

-Reduce/eliminate his bonus promotions. On my last playthrough I decided to abuse Random Seed and just kept killing/loading till I kept him. This resulted in a comically advanced Alcinus very early on.

That should be fixed as of this patch, too.

Flavor wise, the ritual would represent gathering the resources needed to send out assassins world-wide, with the increasing cost representing Alcinus' increasing power and desire to escape Scion control.

That makes sense. However, I like making people go get him. The new spell should make this far simpler - you can home right in on him.

Maybe too simple...

Thaumaturge's Keep: Fantastic. I would like to see a bit more balancing on all the buildings though. I like Military Abattoir's balance, and that of some of the negative mana types.

Any suggestions? (I'm somewhat burnt out on the keep buildings and not inclined to do anything without someone's suggestion to consider, reject, and then do things the way I want. )

-Some kind of bonus associated with Remnants of Patria. It is, after all, the most logically associated UF for the Scions. Maybe a one time bonus of Reborn when your cultural borders include the Remnants?

ATM the Scions get a Golden Age out of the Remnants. What you suggest sounds a lot more interesting, though. At least the "borders" part - moving a unit there is often pretty easy.

I've dialed out the Calibim and Malakim on my Erebus maps. The Calabim for your stated reason and the Malakim so they don't take a desert spot. Seems if they are in the game, my Scions wind up in a lush grassland area.

Ah. I've seemed to have been getting a LOT of grasslands starts. Seemed odd considering the Scions flavormod setup. It might just be the Erebus map, too. Jean Elcard is looking into it, I believe.

Glad you guys are enjoying the Scions. Thanks for all the feedback.

EDIT: "Patch F" changelog posted on first page.

 

[HadesScorn]

I believe I zapped *a* disease event as of patch E/F. There may be more than one. If anyone sees one make a note of the text message received and post it in the bug thread.

Once again, thanks to the patch I get a restart prior to making it past midgame. One of the reasons I love FfH.

Posting this on the bug thread as well. I'll be adding to this post as I play today.

Running Patch F

An unusual wasting disease has spread in the city of Avitas. The children seem the strongest hit and the healers warn that many more will die if nothing is done.

Options:
-Do Nothing [-1 pop]
-Send Healers [Reqs Body]
Ideally, this event would not activate for Scions. However, there could be a flavor solution, something along these lines.
*Let the living perish. More will be drawn to serve the needs of Patria Reborn.
[+2 temporary unhappiness, both from the living servants and from Reborn whose laundry isn't getting done on time.]

 

[Tarquelne]

Ideally, this event would not activate for Scions. However, there could be a flavor solution, something along these lines.

Ok, thanks! I believe I tracked down the bug this time.

(Disagreement in function names. Cut and paste this time - Apparently I can't be trusted to remember a word in the time it takes to tab from one file to another.)

It should make the "ideal" solution above work, but I like your flavor idea.

 

[HadesScorn]

Cool deal. I know zero about the actual XML stuff behind these games, but I did work as a tester for Volition so I feel your pain.

Preliminary feedback [I basically reloaded over and over again to get these].

Thaumaturge's Keep Suggestions

Mana Buildings:
One source of reload. There are universally "good" mana types to get. These add health, happiness or gold to both your city and in some cases your civ. There are also "bad" mana types that add an additional penalty to the city while providing access to a mana type that does nothing for your civ, only unlocking some spells that in all honesty I never really use. Below are my suggestions for making these buildings more balanced.

Air: Nothing. Air does not provide a universal bonus either. Possible solutions include granting a +1 bonus [due to the fresh air brought in] or [overpowered] granting Mobility 1 to units produced. I'd vote health bonus.

Body: +1, -5% military. I'm guessing this is based on flavor- the fact that Reborn liked to look prettier and would use it for such rather than joining the military. Fits.

Chaos: +1, +1, +10% maintenance, +2. Fits, balanced.

Death: +1, +2 Death, +10% military. Fits, and is generally awesome.

Earth: +1, +5% defense. Universal finding bonus. Works.

Enchantment: +1, +1 universal. Seems a bit too good. The universal happiness is enough of a bonus. Maybe cut the ?

Entropy: Wow. This is a reload and a half. +1, +1, -1, -5% military and a spell tree that is practically worthless. If the intent is to show how much the Scions hate being reminded of the eventual Heat Death of the Universe, why would they even allow the Keep to stand? Honestly, I don't know how to balance this while keeping it in flavor. Any suggestions for promotions, spells, or additional effects?

Fire: +1, access to the fire tree. Fire spells are useful, and Undead fear it, so I'm fine keeping it this way.

Force: 10% defense, access to force. Fairly weak, but not much else to do flavor wise. At least it doesn't nerf the city any.

Mind: Universal +3% to research. Suggestion from my roommate: give a small bonus to Awakening. Mind mana increases the call of the Risen Emperor.

Shadow: +1 , -1, +3 Crime Rate, +1. Fairly weak bonus. Unsure of the flavor reason behind the penalty to Unhealth and Culture. I'd suggest eliminating the unhealth bonus, upping the crime rate to +10, and giving two trade routes.

Water: +1. Fits. Water tree isn't great, but not going to spit a bonus in the eye.

3 Bonus Buildings:

Alcinus' Trove: Never got, but the description seems good.

Schola Furo: +1, +1, +4xp for Arcane. Fits.

Death Mana+: +1, +2 Death, +10% military. Fits, and is generally awesome.

Alchemist's Tower:
+3. Universally good. No need to change unless you want to nerf it

Military Abattoir:
+10% military, -10%. Excellent balance. The extra military production vs loss of culture fits both flavor wise and balance wise

Noxious Smell:
+1 and -1 culture. Not a deal breaker if I have other good buildings, but no reason to keep average ones. Suggestions: Undead Units built in this city start with Malaise. As far as I can tell, Malaise in of itself is a fairly uncommon promotion. Useful only against the AI, and available fairly late game. This would see it having a bit more use, and also fits with flavor. After all, if you're raised in a place filled with Noxious Smells as a member of the Undead, it probably lingers on you for a loooong time.

Corrosive Spills:
-2 hammers is somewhat of a drawback early game. To balance this, I suggest that units built within this city receive a free Poisoned Blade promotion and also that the penalty be increased accordingly [-3, maaaybe -4 if people feel poisoned blade is overpowered]. Flavor- while the common citizenry may dislike the toxins, it must be nice to just be able to dip your sword into the nearest puddle to make it toxic to your living enemies. Balance- makes you decide if it is worth it.

 

[Tarquelne]

Keep:

Wow! I'll add that to the documentation. Thanks for all the feedback - I'll respond to it later.

But for now...

[I basically reloaded over and over again to get these].

To avoid the reloading you can open the World Building and plop them all down in a city. Choose "Buildings" in either Player mode or Edit City mode. The Keep buildings are the block of 20 identical icons (same one as for the Keep's build spell) very near the end of the Buildings list.

(Scion stuff tends to be toward the end of all the lists in the WB. May change in the future but convenient for now.)

Also:
The Trove is +2 gold and gives 2 Patrian Artifacts.

 

[HadesScorn]

ATM the Scions get a Golden Age out of the Remnants. What you suggest sounds a lot more interesting, though. At least the "borders" part - moving a unit there is often pretty easy.

For some bizarre reason I had never noticed that before my current game. Despite having it there and working the plot, I must never have moved a unit onto it.

I lean towards border bonuses mainly because of irritation with the current exploration rewards for Letum Frigus. The one game I started close enough to it to explore as the Illians the Amurites beat me there. Despite being on the other side of the continent. They enjoyed that Golden Age right up until Auric nuked their cities off the map.

 

[Tarquelne]

Mana Buildings:
One source of reload. There are universally "good" mana types to get. These add health, happiness or gold to both your city and in some cases your civ.

Some comments on balance:

I'm leary about trying to balance with reloading in mind. The Keep is supposed to be balanced in an "overall" manner - not each building. The 2 negative building possibilities, for example, are supposed to be *negative*. And note that since even getting a good or bad final 2 buildings is up to chance it is the *possibility* of getting a good building balanced against the *possibility* of getting a bad building.

Some building/mana combinations are worse than others. I don't want any 1 game to be too unbalanced, but the Scions are supposed to offer a wider variety in play style - You're supposed to get stuck with mana you don't really want some games. Some games you get good random buildings, other games you don't...

There are also "bad" mana types that add an additional penalty to the city while providing access to a mana type that does nothing for your civ, only unlocking some spells that in all honesty I never really use.

That being said I do want to weed out mana/buildings that are too close to useless...

Body: +1, -5% military. I'm guessing this is based on flavor- the fact that Reborn liked to look prettier and would use it for such rather than joining the military. Fits.

Don't remember why, actually. That sounds good.

Death: +1, +2 Death, +10% military. Fits, and is generally awesome.

I don't really like this one myself. I'd rather have a different mana type. I do like the "flavor" of it having other good characteristics.

Enchantment: +1, +1 universal. Seems a bit too good. The universal happiness is enough of a bonus. Maybe cut the ?

But you can make such pretty things!

Entropy: Wow. This is a reload and a half. +1, +1, -1, -5% military and a spell tree that is practically worthless. If the intent is to show how much the Scions hate being reminded of the eventual Heat Death of the Universe, why would they even allow the Keep to stand? Honestly, I don't know how to balance this while keeping it in flavor. Any suggestions for promotions, spells, or additional effects?

I like Ent. mana - Rust can be great. And yes, the Scions aren't supposed to like having something spewing Entropy mana in the city. Maybe I'll drop either the culture or hammer penalty, though.

Shadow: +1 , -1, +3 Crime Rate, +1. Fairly weak bonus. Unsure of the flavor reason behind the penalty to Unhealth and Culture. I'd suggest eliminating the unhealth bonus, upping the crime rate to +10, and giving two trade routes.

Hmm... I think I'll eliminate the unhealth and raise the crime.

 

[HadesScorn]

The Keep is supposed to be balanced in an "overall" manner - not each building. The 2 negative building possibilities, for example, are supposed to be *negative*. And note that since even getting a good or bad final 2 buildings is up to chance it is the *possibility* of getting a good building balanced against the *possibility* of getting a bad building.

Okay, that makes sense. My only real issue is when the combination of the Keep buildings forces a reload. The Keep itself only provides a +2 science bonus, so when you get stuck with *all* negative effect buildings the increased access to mana usually doesn't inspire me to keep it. I understand what you're saying about balancing the chance of a good building vs a bad building though.

 

[sable_twilight]

I can see why disease and River of Blood affect the Scion.

The dead are really only enticed out of the underworld if they are promised luxuries and worship. This requires enough living around to provide them with the constant chanting, adoration, sacrifices of worldly goods and possessable meat suits needed to keep their attention on the land of the living, a place some of them abandoned long ago. When something like a plague or River of Blood hits, it hits the small populations of attendants hard. With the accompanying loss of attention to the ancients and so some of the bored dead end up slipping back over to the other side.

I live the Scions. They remind me a lot of the Abyssals from the Exalted table top RPG.