Scions documentation

[Grimz101]

Okay, I'll re-phrase.

Major bugs such as the one with the Svartalfar settler should have been picked up by the team *before* someone had to report it. Same applies to the missing text keys, it should take no more than 10/15 minutes to go through the pedia and check for missing entries.

But then it will take longer for them to release stuff ect
just consider yourself a beta tester untill around patch H or something

 

[Methuselah]

But then it will take longer for them to release stuff ect

Ah, but would you rather have a buggy mod now, or wait an extra month for a more bug free version?

 

[JayThomas]

@Methuselah,

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think your tone is somewhat over-critical.

The team makes this mod for free, we didn't pay for it. Stuff happens and I'm sure the teams (FfH2 and FF) would love everything to be perfect at release. The countless permutations make it very difficult to catch things; you make a change and don't realize it impacts something else that was working.

So, in a sense, we all participate in creating the mod through bug reporting and suggestions.

Each passing patch makes the game better overall (well except patch D, that was a nightmare for me. ).

 

[odalrick]

Ah, but would you rather have a buggy mod now, or wait an extra month for a more bug free version?

Why not both?

If you want a bug free mod, wait a month. And because they released early, there will be fewer bugs sooner.

 

[Methuselah]

@Methuselah,

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think your tone is somewhat over-critical.

I guess, but I figured it'd be more useful than everyone going "yes I like this mod 100% no problems."

And while yes it is hard to catch the rare/obscure bugs and such, the Svartalfar settling a city shouldn't have slipped through really, should it?

 

[JayThomas]

And while yes it is hard to catch the rare/obscure bugs and such, the Svartalfar settling a city shouldn't have slipped through really, should it?

I agree with you in principle and if this was a professional, payed for effort, rather unacceptable. I blew it off since I don't play the Svartalfar and dialed them out of the game at set-up.

Anyway, it was quickly fixed, in the end.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Do you normally finish your games?
And
Do you mean just not finishing, or you're getting wiped out/the AI is beating you to victory?

To me, the scions have very powerful benefits with very few offsets.

In FF .50 I have problems with unrecoverable MAFs so far with the scions. I didn't feel like playing something else in FF until I finish a game with the Scions. When things got interesting, mid game, able to spawn reborns, AI pissed off at me and everyone starting to declare war on me, on .43, .50 came out and I wan't able to see what would happen. I did not feel overpoweredl at the point, at least not as much as with Amurites in FFH2, where at the same point I have usually dominated the Map.

On the subject of heroes, does anyone ever actually create the Dark Council? The benefits I saw from it didn't outweigh having the Artful Governor, the Diplomat-Guy of Pop-Stealing, and the Ultimate Scoutguy running around. (Though I have never been able to do anything but found the Keep with the Mage before he runs off to go be utterly psychotic.)

The counsil is better to have it than not. I have created it and it is better than nothing.

Happiness is the pop cap for Scions in a single city, since you cannot add a new pop if you have not enough happiness there.

I try to populate the capital as much as possible, to keep my spawning rate decent. It seems there is no real benefit to run Aristocracy, since the unique units you get, come with God King. So, I do not run aristocracy, since Scions cannot build farms, and the +2 gold this civic gives is nullified.

I have never played Korina, since she does not have arcane and I prefer Arcane civs. When I finish a Scions game with the Emperor, I will try it, though.

I agree that it should be a whole different civ with Korina, religion is a significant factor in this mod. Not to mention the possible diplomatic benefits with AI civs.

I was not happy with the bazaar nerf, but I can live with it .

I would prefer if that mad wizard had his chance to go mad reduced. It is a little pain to babysit him, but its OK as a negative sideeffect. I think he is unique in this aspect.

What I like about scions are their uniqueness. It is like no other civ. It was a great idea implementing them, and, as already mentioned, it is actually two civs. I really do not feel them overpowered, and as soon as I get rid of those MAFs, I will be able to give more propper feedback.

Good job Tarquelne. Keep it up.

 

[MaxAstro]

For me the only thing that limits my cities is population. For a brief moment I might case a little about health, when a city is next to a lot of flood plains or jungle, but well or a health resource finally connected eliminates that. Then the Necropolis eliminates that.

Speaking of Flood Plains, I have noticed that they REALLY suck for the Scions. I only just got into trying out Haunted Lands (not a tech path I've explored before), and I've realized that Flood Plains can never be haunted. Desert you can use spring to turn into plains; however, Flood Plains are immune to spring. Is this an intentional balance point or an oversight? As is, Flood Plains will never be anything other than a 1c tile at base; there is no way to terraform them to anything better.

 

[Tarquelne]

It seems there is no real benefit to run Aristocracy, since the unique units you get, come with God King. So, I do not run aristocracy, since Scions cannot build farms, and the +2 gold this civic gives is nullified.

Sounds like you're aware, but just to make sure:

Aristocracy gives a +40% bonus to spawning.
You can build farms on grain resources.

 

[Tarquelne]

As is, Flood Plains will never be anything other than a 1c tile at base; there is no way to terraform them to anything better.

Intentional balance point: The destruction of another civ's flood plains seemed to powerful. I also like how a normally desirable terrain is much less so for the Scions, but the main thing was avoiding the destruction of someone else's fps.

I could probably allow HL to replace flood plains within Scion borders if it'd be an improvement.

I only just got into trying out Haunted Lands (not a tech path I've explored before),

That's something I keep meaning to ask about...

Question for everyone: Are there tech paths you strongly favor for the Scions? Or are several attractive? Any you think that should be more attractive?

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Sounds like you're aware, but just to make sure:

Aristocracy gives a +40% bonus to spawning.
You can build farms on grain resources.

Sure a 40% over 5.6% is approx a +2%. Not a big deal if I am to sacrifice the 50% production and commerce.

And, Grain resources appear on grasslands. I tend to avoid having grasslands in my city radious because they are useless...

 

[Valkrionn]

So, I do not run aristocracy, since Scions cannot build farms, and the +2 gold this civic gives is nullified.

You also get quite a bit of happiness from the training buildings, as well as reducing maintenance... Makes it worth it early-midgame for me. I do tend to switch over to godking once I have to start cranking out reborn, but the benefits for aristocracy in the early game are fine.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Question for everyone: Are there tech paths you strongly favor for the Scions? Or are several attractive? Any you think that should be more attractive?

The way it is, you must follow four different paths in order to get some significant units and the heroes. Hunting and Tracking are a must to get ghostwalkers and be able to creat haunted lands, which are crucial for the success of the Scions IMO.
Also, the priesthood path is a must, in order to get the ability to produce reborns.
At this point, I feel the Scions have to be made more attracted towards the arcane path, since it is the weakest for them and does not fit it, being an Arcane civ and such. Right now, I give the arcane path a low priority, since it is better to work for having Korina the Red Laidy, Gosthwalkers, and the Doomsayers, first... Researching Knoweledge of the Ether just after I get the Red lady to unshakle her.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

You also get quite a bit of happiness from the training buildings, as well as reducing maintenance... Makes it worth it early-midgame for me. I do tend to switch over to godking once I have to start cranking out reborn, but the benefits for aristocracy in the early game are fine.

I usually do not need that much happiness, since I do not get that many awakened, and early game production and research is more importand to me. Research=Commerse, early game... As for maintenance, no problems here with only 3 or 4 cities up to midgame...

EDIT: All descriptions and opinions are given for the Monarch difficulty, which I currently play. I do not know what happens on higher difficulties...

 

[Iceciro]

For me, Tarq, the most useless thing with the Scions so far are the Creepers, because they can't do any damage on thier own and are invisible so most

 

[Thunder_Gr]

For me, Tarq, the most useless thing with the Scions so far are the Creepers, because they can't do any damage on thier own and are invisible so most barbs don't attack them, therefore unless I can con something into attacking a stack they're hiding in they never do any good and I just sit them on a town and hope.

I'd really like the ability to do some sort of damage and feed them, or something. I am at the moment, utterly unimpressed by them. I just wait for the chance to research the Recon line and do HLs that way.

The creepers as of .50 are upgrading over time and can create haunted lands without needing to get fed.

EDIT: In addition, they are not invisible to hunters. I had some AI hunters and scouts attacking my creepers before .50.

 

[Valkrionn]

I'm ambivalent towards creepers. By the time I have redactors, they're just a nuisance spawning constantly throughout my haunted continent, but early game they help quite a bit, letting me haunt those tiles that could use it most. I WOULD like to see their spawning toned down a bit late game, but it's easily dealt with by just deleting them.

 

[MaxAstro]

Would have to agree that Creepers feel pretty useless. The combination of incredibly low strength, defensive only, and invisible means that they will basically never win a fight, and almost never be in a fight at all. Arawn's Dust, at least, is a pretty useless spell IMO; haven't seen what the blooming creeper spell does.

Creepers would ironically be a LOT more useful if they were not invisible; you could use them as a throwaway defensive unit to poison enemies, and stack them on chokepoints to slow an advance.

 

[Justicar333]

Have to agree, the creepers seem of little use. I thought they were supposed to destroy the attacking unit even if they die? It's not been happening so far. The unit was poisoned, but that was the extent. It would make sense to either remove the invisiblity, or let them attack.

Even without the instant kill poison then, at least creepers would make free cannon fodder to slow down invading armies.

 

[Tarquelne]

I'm surprised about the Creepers. I don't think of them as military units at all, but more as spies, traps (lack of invis. would certainly help there, at least with the final stage) and vehicles for Arawn's Dust or Burrs. But I didn't have many last game (enough to drop the Bannor's population significantly, though) and am just getting into them this game. I was afraid they'd be too usefull. We'll see.

Some possible tweaks (ie, I don't want to make them very different, lets see if this fixes it) would be maturing them quicker, wholly or partially removing invis. (seems esp. dangerous, balance-wise), adjusting the spawn frequency or #s.