Scions documentation

[Tarquelne]

Another thing, why are Awakened, Reborn and True Pilgrims national units? It screws up the city build queues for no apparent reason.

To try and keep the AI from overbuilding. I'm not sure if it's actually needed.

Oh, and Martyrs of Patria are worthless.

Yes?

 

[odalrick]

To try and keep the AI from overbuilding. I'm not sure if it's actually needed.

If the AI has stockpiled enough awakened for that to make a difference, I think it has bigger problems.

Anyway, it seems like the AI applies settler logic to ART:s, and I've never seen the AI overbuild settlers.

Yes?

Yes.

 

[Tarquelne]

Yes.

Don't be shy, tell us why.

 

[TimSLS]

I don't think the spawning rate should be reduced - the only other civs I've played recently are the Lanun and the Mazartl, and I'd say I do much better as the Lanun (heron throne, followed by great lighthouses + lots of coastal cities and pirate coves leads to insane tech advantage), and about the same as to Mazartl as the Scions.

Also, reducing the spawning rate wouldn't reduce power as much as shift tactics. To get a high spawning rate, I need to make a decision to basically forgo most else while I construct buildings and aquire recourses. With reduced spawning I'd probably just refocus on legates/doomsayers and offensive war to gain population, at about the same effect. I like the choice of either.

By the way, on the point about the AI sucking - I'm not sure if anyone else would want to try this (I think my 10 years of DMing has made me comfortable with the role), but I cheat to help the AI in a pretty set manner (I don't like going above emperor difficulty for the weirdness it does in my own cities). By having a set formula it feels like part of the game. Somewhere between turn 50-60, I go into worldbuilder and each AI gets 2 settlers. At turn 100-120, each AI gets exploration, fishing, and sailing (to help their trade), plus I check their lands and remedy any strange problems (ie they've only founded 1 or 2 cities, I give them a few more plus some warriors, they've not improved land, I give them a bunch of workers, not developing well, I plant bonus recources, sheep, copper, etc). After both FoL and RoK have been founded, I go give the other religious techs to the ones I want to found them, wait a turn for founding, then give most civs a thematic relgious tech plus spread it through their cities. And if any civ declares war on me, they get a bunch of units (1 for each 10 turns in, of an many kinds as 50 turns have passed, so at turn 113 they would get 11 scouts, 11 warriors, and 11 axeman).

By the way, none of the above effects my spawn rate, so I'm still a viable experimental subject for feedback.

Tim

 

[TimSLS]

Aren't the martyrs mostly a road to emperor's dagger?

 

[odalrick]

Fundamentally the problem with Martyrs of Patria is that the AI is incapable of using a unit efficiently enough for it to be worth one turn of one of my cities production. So even if they cost only 1 and were guaranteed to kill their target, they'd be a net loss.

This is an AI issue in a way, maybe multiplayer is different.

 

[Tarquelne]

With reduced spawning I'd probably just refocus on legates/doomsayers and offensive war to gain population, at about the same effect.

Yeah, that's true. I'm thinking about lowering the conversion chance for the priests, btw. With the new barbarian system the best prey - barbarians - seem if not more numerous then at least around later in the game.

Aren't the martyrs mostly a road to emperor's dagger?

Well... when you've got Poisons and assuming you can build them at all (GK, Drama) they're:

Less than 1/2 the cost.
+1 strength
-25 rather than -50 vs. cities
Nat. limit 6
And die 1/2 the time against most opponents even if they win.

Given the last two you're not going to be using them en mass. Given the value of Marksman and the first 3 points, OTOH, I don't understand "Worthless". I use them like cheap Assassins, which is exactly what they seem to be.

I see they didn't pick up defensive strike immunity, though...

 

[Tarquelne]

Ninja'd

So even if they cost only 1 and were guaranteed to kill their target, they'd be a net loss.

This is an AI issue in a way, maybe multiplayer is different.

Ah...

 

[odalrick]

Also, reducing the spawning rate wouldn't reduce power as much as shift tactics. To get a high spawning rate, I need to make a decision to basically forgo most else while I construct buildings and aquire recourses. With reduced spawning I'd probably just refocus on legates/doomsayers and offensive war to gain population, at about the same effect. I like the choice of either.

And Korrina can't use legates..

By the way, on the point about the AI sucking - I'm not sure if anyone else would want to try this (I think my 10 years of DMing has made me comfortable with the role), but I cheat to help the AI in a pretty set manner (I don't like going above emperor difficulty for the weirdness it does in my own cities). By having a set formula it feels like part of the game. Somewhere between turn 50-60, I go into worldbuilder and each AI gets 2 settlers. At turn 100-120, each AI gets exploration, fishing, and sailing (to help their trade), plus I check their lands and remedy any strange problems (ie they've only founded 1 or 2 cities, I give them a few more plus some warriors, they've not improved land, I give them a bunch of workers, not developing well, I plant bonus recources, sheep, copper, etc). After both FoL and RoK have been founded, I go give the other religious techs to the ones I want to found them, wait a turn for founding, then give most civs a thematic relgious tech plus spread it through their cities. And if any civ declares war on me, they get a bunch of units (1 for each 10 turns in, of an many kinds as 50 turns have passed, so at turn 113 they would get 11 scouts, 11 warriors, and 11 axeman).

That sound like a great way to make the AI a slight challenge.

Since it is so formulaic, it should be possible to make a mod that makes such adjustments by itself... Look at the human player to get an idea of the challenge necessary, then adjust the AI opponents to that level. I may have to try something like that.


None of this changes my objections to Martyrs of Patria though. Giving the AI more units just means I have to use my own units more effectively.

 

[Tarquelne]

In queue for next patch:

Korrina loses ChanI, gets free xps at half current rate, to a lower cap

MoPs get Immune to Defensive Strikes

Legates have 15 rather than 20% conversion chance.

Korrina (leader) can build Legates


Rather than giving her Legates Korrina's spawn rate could be increased (maybe just early on) - easy but borning.

Imperial Cenotaph could be made better. Easy but boring and maybe not early enough for those who want an early boost for Korrina. (Though if that's not early enough neither are Legates.)

A new early building could be added for Korrina - not so easy, maybe not boring.

And there's still the possibility of shuffling Leader Traits.

 

[TimSLS]

Reducing to 15% sounds like a great idea, I think it should also be applied to doomsayers though. Generally, with legates they have a significant chance of losing battles (even against week units like warriors) so their effectivness already has a hit, wheras doomsayers can find easy prey they are basically invulnerable to. Both at 15% sounds like a good idea.

Something to consider - maybe confine legates, doomsayers, and the other one to friendly cultural borders? It would have an explanation (easier to convert within the shadow of Scions influence anyway, a bit odd to do so so far away from Scions presence), and gameplay wise would reduce the ability to farm population. Also, currently I'm not very inclined to build many military units besides legates/doomsayers, except to soften up enemy defenses, as it seems a shame to pass up the conversion chance.

 

[Endovior]

Are the Scions unable to build Carnivals? I've researched Festivals, yet I'm finding that I can't actually build any Carnivals, anywhere. I checked through the documentation, but couldn't find any mention of it... so I figured I'd ask.

(First time playing, and I quite enjoy the mod... but I find myself wishing I could actually do stuff with all the animals Korinna has captured. At this point, I could almost build the Grand Menagerie, so it's kinda relevant...)

 

[TimSLS]

I'm starting to think there should be a sticky thread in the forum, titled "carnivals require masquerade guild. Get a great bard."

 

[Endovior]

Ahh, that makes more sense then. Thanks.

 

[Tarquelne]

Something to consider - maybe confine legates, doomsayers, and the other one to friendly cultural borders?

I'm going to try -2/-1 strength outside borders, +0/+1 strength within for the "Doom" units.

 

[TimSLS]

That makes great sense. By the way, I tried a quick game with another race today - just kept wanting to go back to Scions. They are really, really fun to play, thanks for creating/working on them.

 

[JayThomas]

I'm going to try -2/-1 strength outside borders, +0/+1 strength within for the "Doom" units.

a nerfing we will go, a nerfing we will go.....

Why this? They are already being reduced to 15% reborn success. This would make them virtually useless.

 

[JayThomas]

That makes great sense. By the way, I tried a quick game with another race today - just kept wanting to go back to Scions. They are really, really fun to play, thanks for creating/working on them.

Yes, since I started playing them, it's hard to get back to anyone else.

 

[TimSLS]

Useless I definitally disagree with - 15% is still 3/4 of their original chance. The weekening outside borders will just keep their extra-territorial actions to picking off week isolated units, rather than being able to face the enemy's main army head on all the while creating population. The scions should still need to employ regular army units for their offensive war. Otherwise, you potentially get more population by wiping out the warriors guarding a city rather than taking the city itself...

Also, think about it this way - a warrior costs 25 hammers to build. A settler costs 200 (about?) hammers to build. So 8 warriors to a settler. But 1 reborn to 5 warriors? Sounds like a ponzi scheme - more value coming out than going in (albiet your neighbor put in the value). Also, comparing to the scions own production, it shouldn't be clear that you're usually gonna get more population by building doomsayers and invading your neighbor who is still carting around warriors than by actually building reborn through a cathedral of rebirth - at least not always. This way, the priests have their place - converting those foolish enough to enter scion territory, taking a supporting role in offensive engagements (picking off weekened units, using medic, and casting spells)...

And on game balance, the thing I love about the scions is how population is precious - but mid game they need a nerfing to preserve this. I'm more populaous than my AI rivals by turn 200.

 

[Tarquelne]

Why this? They are already being reduced to 15% reborn success. This would make them virtually useless.

If you mean the Legates, they don't have the strength adjustments.

If you mean the Doomsayers/givers: First, I didn't touch the reborn-rate, so you get to keep that extra 5%.

Secondly, to put a brake on mass-use of Doomsayers offensively. They're even better within your own territory, outside it you'll still be able to pick off weakened units, but front-line use is a lot more difficult. Hopefully no taking out weak civs with little more than Doomsayers and taking 1/5 of the defenders

I've been playing more since the last patch... to the point where I've *almost* been at the point where I could see for myself what someone's talking about. My current game had an island start and I was just eyeing the Calabim. They're hemmed in on a nearby peninsula by the Austrin. I think I could take them with Korrina, a few mages, some archers/Honored band for defense... and Doomsayers. They've got a lot of Bloodpets...

Short answer: As a rubber-band mechanism. A slight boost defensively, a definite nerf offensively. Definetly not front-line material. However, you can still supplement your pop-building with the occasional Doom-converted Rebon, which is the intent of the unit.