Scions documentation

[Valkrionn]

a nerfing we will go, a nerfing we will go.....

Why this? They are already being reduced to 15% reborn success. This would make them virtually useless.

I've gotta agree with that... I can see reducing the chance to get a reborn, but decreasing their strength seems a bit much.

Edit: Actually, reading your post from after I started mine (And went to grab some food in the middle of it ) I don't think it's that bad of an idea. Had originally thought the Legates were being nerfed also, but if it's just the more advanced priests it still allows for legate farming the Barbs, while handicapping the ability to gain massive amounts of reborn from warfare.

 

[Tarquelne]

Useless I definitally disagree with - 15% is still 3/4 of their original chance.

The primary reason I kept the 20% was because I wanted to go all the way down to strength 3/4 outside Home for the Scions. But at the same attack as Legates and a much lower build-cost I wanted more of a reason to build Doomsayers rather than lots and lots and lots of Legates.

I really like the "restrict to own territory" idea, btw. Makes a lot of sense for the Scions priests. A significant strength hit is a near variation. I'm going to try and see if I can't use that mechanic elsewhere... Hopefully without making Vehem's eyes roll at *another* Scion UU... but we'll see.

 

[TimSLS]

I have four questions on the scions (not suggestions, though I wonder on people's thoughts):

1) Last time river of blood was cast, none of my size 2 cities lost pop (which is normal I think), and my size 5 capitol went down to 4. Is it that the scions only suffer half effect from this spell (that would make sense)? I'm half inclined to avoid getting cities above 2 pop until after it is cast...I wonder if scions ability to control their population distrubution might preserve them too much against this, though then again it would make sense their blood wouldn't provide much sustenence.

2) On the effect of Stasis - its interesting that the Scions are the one civ that still has an outlet for growth during this phase. I really hope for the illians to cast this, once I've got aristocracy running, a few buildings constructed, and recources aquired. Interestingly enough, the illians seem to drop it about the right time, and I get maybe 3-4 additional awakening pop in this period. Also, if legates or polemic are about a couple more... I'm not sure it would be a good idea to disable though, as the decreasing chance per turn mechanic would then put an extra hinderence on the scions. And it does seem to make sense, in that the awakening are coming from the vault because of the attraction of a luxurious society - I'm not sure the static effect would deter this.

3) I wonder about the awakening bonus for population in the capitol. It feels about right - though it only provides a small incentive to favor the capitol, as you're better off planting a new city with 4 or so pop that can build the various buildings, and maybe aquire an artifact. If I'm correct, four pop in the capitol is a base 1% increase, whereas getting the three buildings in a new city gives 3.5%...

4) Is there currently a diplomatic penalty with the sidar? I'd imagine one would make sense...

 

[TimSLS]

That makes sense, doomsayers should be a bit more 'charismatic' than legates anyway.

Edit- on thinking about it, I see why you reduced strength rather than restricting their movement. Depriving the scions of medic/priest spell support outside their borders wouldn't make much sense.

 

[JayThomas]

If you mean the Legates, they don't have the strength adjustments.

If you mean the Doomsayers/givers: First, I didn't touch the reborn-rate, so you get to keep that extra 5%.

Opps, didn't see that part. Yeah, I can live with the change applied to the doomers.

 

[JayThomas]

This way, the priests have their place - converting those foolish enough to enter scion territory, taking a supporting role in offensive engagements (picking off weekened units, using medic, and casting spells)...

And on game balance, the thing I love about the scions is how population is precious - but mid game they need a nerfing to preserve this. I'm more populaous than my AI rivals by turn 200.

I see your point. Also, I misthought the nerf was being applied to Legates.

 

[Valkrionn]

I have four questions on the scions (not suggestions, though I wonder on people's thoughts):

1) Last time river of blood was cast, none of my size 2 cities lost pop (which is normal I think), and my size 5 capitol went down to 4. Is it that the scions only suffer half effect from this spell (that would make sense)? I'm half inclined to avoid getting cities above 2 pop until after it is cast...I wonder if scions ability to control their population distrubution might preserve them too much against this, though then again it would make sense their blood wouldn't provide much sustenence.

2) On the effect of Stasis - its interesting that the Scions are the one civ that still has an outlet for growth during this phase. I really hope for the illians to cast this, once I've got aristocracy running, a few buildings constructed, and recources aquired. Interestingly enough, the illians seem to drop it about the right time, and I get maybe 3-4 additional awakening pop in this period. Also, if legates or polemic are about a couple more... I'm not sure it would be a good idea to disable though, as the decreasing chance per turn mechanic would then put an extra hinderence on the scions. And it does seem to make sense, in that the awakening are coming from the vault because of the attraction of a luxurious society - I'm not sure the static effect would deter this.

3) I wonder about the awakening bonus for population in the capitol. It feels about right - though it only provides a small incentive to favor the capitol, as you're better off planting a new city with 4 or so pop that can build the various buildings, and maybe aquire an artifact. If I'm correct, four pop in the capitol is a base 1% increase, whereas getting the three buildings in a new city gives 3.5%...

4) Is there currently a diplomatic penalty with the sidar? I'd imagine one would make sense...

1. Yeah, River of Blood has a reduced effect on the Scions.

2. I did not know this... Should probably block awakened spawning during this period. Should be possible to prevent the spawn chance from decreasing, as well. I just don't think the Scions should have reduced effects for TWO worldspells...

3. Yes, going straight from the spawn chance it is better to have many small cities than one large capital and a few small cities. However, once you have to switch over to Reborn production, a large capital is almost a necessity, so I tend to take the spawn chance hit and max my capital.

4. Not atm, but you're right, it would be rather fitting... I'd be tempted to say there should be one with Basium as well however, as he's supposed to be guarding Arawn's realm and should therefore dislike Necromancy and Undead of all kinds.

 

[JayThomas]

1. Yeah, River of Blood has a reduced effect on the Scions.

2. I did not know this... Should probably block awakened spawning during this period. Should be possible to prevent the spawn chance from decreasing, as well. I just don't think the Scions should have reduced effects for TWO worldspells...

1. Didn't know this. Guess I'll put the Calibim in my games again.

2. I agree with the reduced effects for two worldspells. Why not just set the spawn rate to 0 during stasis. Legates et al, would still work though.

 

[Valkrionn]

2. I agree with the reduced effects for two worldspells. Why not just set the spawn rate to 0 during stasis. Legates et al, would still work though.

Only issue with that is, like TimSLS noted, the spawn chance will continue to delay each turn. So long as that is stopped as well, I'm 100% for the change.

 

[TimSLS]

Well, in a break of form for my general advocacy of nerfing them, I'm not convinced that stasis should stop the awakening. On the one hand, roleplaying wise it doesn't seem so odd that people would still want to come out of the vault to luxuriate in scion society - the whole scion theme is a bit of stasis, unchanging, immortal, etc...I see what you're saying about reduced effects from two worldspells, but then again the reduce effect of rivers of blood isn't really reduced - rather, it reflects the fact that population is more valuable for the scions, so the reduced effect is just as bad as the normal effect on a normal civ.

So really we are talking about one world spell being weathered much better - though in truth stasis becomes a net benefit to the scions, so long as the illians are not your chief rival (which seems an unlikely situation) as your situation is improved vs all other ai civs. Making including the illians in your game something of a reduction in difficult for the scions - though I'm not sure thats a problem. After all, there's another such option that comes to mind - end of winter with the Scions. And other civs have such ideosyncracies too....

Anyway, I'm not sure how this comes out...though having already reduced scion population gain in other ways, it might make sense to wait and see how those effect things before going another step.

 

[Methuselah]

but then again the reduce effect of rivers of blood isn't really reduced - rather, it reflects the fact that population is more valuable for the scions, so the reduced effect is just as bad as the normal effect on a normal civ.

*Insert post about Infernal being affected*
*Receive counter post about how Scions must be the most overpowered civ to exist*
*Abandon hope and go to the pub.*

Figured I'd save us the arguing this time.

 

[Tarquelne]

1) Last time river of blood was cast, none of my size 2 cities lost pop (which is normal I think), and my size 5 capitol went down to 4. Is it that the scions only suffer half effect from this spell (that would make sense)?

Yep.

I'm half inclined to avoid getting cities above 2 pop until after it is cast...I wonder if scions ability to control their population distrubution might preserve them too much against this, though then again it would make sense their blood wouldn't provide much sustenence.

Short of implementing a "Gamy B*stard" detecting algorithm, maybe the spell could be changed. I didn't really mind the hit, but there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth on the board and a reduced effect makes a lot of sense because of the civ's background.

But that was quite awhile ago: Now that more players are familiar with the Scions the hit from River of Blood might be seen more of a challenge than the knell of doom? Eh, eh?

Or, some possible adjustments: Normal RoB for most cities, but those with Necropolis (req. Sorcery) aren't hit. Or cities of population of 4+ take the full effect rather than 3+. (We assume they're big enough to have a large living underclass while cities with size 1-3 aren't.)

Re: Stasis

Well, in a break of form for my general advocacy of nerfing them, I'm not convinced that stasis should stop the awakening. On the one hand, roleplaying wise it doesn't seem so odd that people would still want to come out of the vault to luxuriate in scion society - the whole scion theme is a bit of stasis, unchanging, immortal, etc...I see what you're saying about reduced effects from two worldspells, but then again the reduce effect of rivers of blood isn't really reduced - rather, it reflects the fact that population is more valuable for the scions, so the reduced effect is just as bad as the normal effect on a normal civ.

Yeah - there's roleplaying, there's game balance, there's simple fun... In this case I'm leaning toward "fun", fun here being defined as Stasis knocking every civ back.

2. I did not know this... Should probably block awakened spawning during this period.

Ditto.

Yes, and/or suppress the "Join City" spells.

I've little idea how to do either, though. I'll take a look and/or cry for help.

Sidar diplo penalty:

Yes, makes sense. Basium too, depending.

 

[TimSLS]

Yah, I'm not sure river of blood needs to be reduced - even absent planning for it, the scions are more likely than other civs at the time it is cast to have a collection of size 1 and 2 cities, with only the capital and maybe one second city at 3 or above. So even at full effect they are likely to recieve a somewhat diminished effect...

On further thought I'm also convinced on stasis, as long as that decaying chance of awakening is frozen.

 

[Tarquelne]

Just what does Stasis do? The code says

pPlayer2.changeDisableProduction(iDelay)
pPlayer2.changeDisableResearch(iDelay)

The build queue and Research halts, yes? Population growth, culture, Great People point generation?

 

[Methuselah]

Just what does Stasis do? The code says

pPlayer2.changeDisableProduction(iDelay)
pPlayer2.changeDisableResearch(iDelay)

The build queue and Research halts, yes? Population growth, culture, Great People point generation?

All stops. Maintenance, growth, pretty much everything.

 

[Valkrionn]

Just what does Stasis do? The code says

pPlayer2.changeDisableProduction(iDelay)
pPlayer2.changeDisableResearch(iDelay)

The build queue and Research halts, yes? Population growth, culture, Great People point generation?

Yep. All of these halt for the Scions as well. Just need to block awakened spawns.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Please, whatever changes you make, make sure they make it to civilopedia!!, Please

 

[Tarquelne]

Yep. All of these halt for the Scions as well. Just need to block awakened spawns.

Done. (Turned out to be easy, assuming it works - seems to: Rate display disappeared during Stasis, reappeared afterward.) Hopefully it'll get in the next patch.

The decay counter does keep going during Stasis. Normal speed, standard map, we're talking a base loss of .27% assuming it's cast the first turn. Non-trivial, but it'd take awhile to fix, I think having the counter continue fits the background info, and I feel the Illians are not hated and feared sufficiently.

 

[TimSLS]

Yah, almost certain your time is better spent elsewhere. Also, the Scions don't suffer as much from the Illians cold inducing deepening, lacking a need for food...so more reason to hate the illians is nice.

 

[Randomness]

I have four questions on the scions (not
2) On the effect of Stasis - its interesting that the Scions are the one civ that still has an outlet for growth during this phase. I really hope for the illians to cast this, once I've got aristocracy running, a few buildings constructed, and recources aquired. Interestingly enough, the illians seem to drop it about the right time, and I get maybe 3-4 additional awakening pop in this period. Also, if legates or polemic are about a couple more... I'm not sure it would be a good idea to disable though, as the decreasing chance per turn mechanic would then put an extra hinderence on the scions. And it does seem to make sense, in that the awakening are coming from the vault because of the attraction of a luxurious society - I'm not sure the static effect would deter this.

Thats true... but the Amurite wordspell (can't remeber what it's called) disalows spell casting, and join city is a spell... I don't think this is intentional, but it does somewhat balance that strength (only if you have both in the game though). I know this because it happend in my game...