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[NFP] Scoring City States

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Lily_Lancer, Oct 21, 2020.

  1. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    I feel that CS bonus is actually much more powerful and decisive than Civ bonuses, they shall be rated.

    To rate the power of a CS, assuming the CS is close to you and you get the first-meet envoy as well as suzerain it in the mid game and expand your envoys to 6+ in late games.

    Scoring is based on Civ power. Take the most powerful Civ, Gran Columbia as 100 and a blank Civ without any special abilities as 0. Most common Civs has a power of 40-60. And we're rating "if you get the CS, how much more powerful can you be."

    1: CS type
    The CS type is a decisive bonus. +1/2/3 for buildings is not a small amount, especially for science. One Scientific CS can provide bonus like Hypatia, Newton and Einstein sum up together.

    Base Score:
    +1 Diplo Favor, provide resource and sight, can levy army, +2 era score when you become its first suzerain: 2

    Scientific CS: 17

    Palace +1 Science:+4
    Library +1 Science:+5
    University/Diplo Zone +2 Science: +4
    Lab/Diplo Zone +3 Science: +2

    Cultural CS: 11

    Palace +1 Culture: +5
    Amphitheater +1 Culture: +2
    Museum/Diplo Zone +2 Culture: +1
    Broadcast Tower/Diplo Zone +3 Culture: +1

    Commercial CS: 6

    Palace +1 Gold: +1
    Market/Lighthouse +1 Gold: +1
    Bank/Shipyard/Diplo +2 Gold, Stock Exchange/SeaPort/Diplo +3 Gold: +1
    Good trade route target if close to the sea (as the CS may build both CH and Harbor): +1

    Religious CS: 13

    Palace +1 Faith: +4
    Shrine +1 Faith: +2
    Temple/Diplo Zone +2 Faith: +3
    Religious building/Diplo Zone +3 Faith: +2

    Industrial CS: 4

    Palace +1 Prod on non-unit: +1
    Workshop +1 Prod on non-unit, Factory/Diplo Zone +2 Prod on non-unit, Power Plant/Diplo Zone +3 Prod on non-unit: +1

    Militaristic CS: 5

    Palace +1 Prod on unit: +2
    Barrack/Stable +1 Prod on unit, Armory/Diplo +2 Prod on Unit, Military Academy/Diplo +3 Prod on unit: +1
     
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  2. Minou

    Minou Prince

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    Lily I am really looking forward to your rankings. But, I am surprised you give Commercial more points than Industrial and Militaristic. 4gpt was nice, but 1gpt feels pretty meaningless to me. I would prefer the extra 1h for my Settler/Builder or 1h for Monument/first district in the capital. At the very start of the game, that can shave a turn off some key builds. Over the course of the entire game I don't think is much difference but I would tend to only build 2 Markets and (maybe) 2 Banks versus at least 3 Workshops, 2 Factories, and 2 Powerplants (often a few more, probably suboptimal of me but I get tempted by Industrial zones that are in 6 tilerange of many cities). So long term I would prefer Industrial over Commercial too.

    To be honest I would also consider Science and Culture more than twice as good as Commercial, more like 20 times better (ignoring Suzerain ability for the moment). Assuming of course this is for Science Victory. But, I get that you are scaling to Civ overall strength so that would probably mess us the scaling?
     
  3. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Scoring based on specific CS Suzerain bonuses:

    Akkad: 18

    Militaristic: +5
    Melee and anti-cavalry units' attacks do full damage to the city's walls :+13, decisive bonus, however we usually use cavalries for war.

    Antananarivo: 22

    Culture: +11
    +2% Culture per GP recruited: +11, very powerful in late game, and only in late game.

    Armagh: 15

    Religious: +13
    Can build Monastery: +2, minor bonus for RV.

    Auckland: 14

    Industrial: +4
    +1 Prod on Shallow water, +1 Prod when your culture/science advances to industrial: +10, powerful bonus on sea

    Babylon: 20

    Scientific: +17
    +2 Science for books: +2
    +1 Science for relics and artifact: +1

    Bandar Brunei: 7

    Commercial: +6
    Foreign trading post +1 Gold for Trade routes: +1

    Bologna: 25

    Scientific: +17
    +1 GPP for districts with a building: +8, somehow powerful, but due to the current advanced-era GP penalty mechanism, this one is in fact not as powerful as vanilla.

    Brussels: 10

    Industrial: +4
    +15% on Wonders: +6

    Buenos Aires: 8

    Industrial :+4
    +1 Amenity per bonus resource type: +4, when distributed there's not many amenities left for each city.

    Caguana: 17

    Cultural:+11
    Can build Batey: +6, Batey is a good improvement, sometimes can give some good culture.

    Cahokia: 15

    Commercial: +6
    Can build Cahokia Mound: +9, the Cahokia Mound is really powerful, at least +1 amenity per city.

    Cardiff: 6

    Industrial: +4
    +2 Power per Harbor building: +2, You don't need to build an industrial zone to power your research lab. But only works for cities with a Harbor.

    Fez: 21

    Scientific: +17
    +20 Science per citizen when converting a city for the 1st time using a religious unit: +4, sometimes this may be powerful, using faith to exchange science.

    Geneva: 33

    Scientific:+17
    +15% Science at Peace: +16, this one is tricky, always make it hard to declare wars.

    Granada: 20

    Militaristic: 5
    Can build Alcazar: +15, Alcazar is basically a better form of Ziggurat.

    Hattusa: 19

    Scientific: +17
    +2 Resource per turn for you have revealed but not improved: +2, well, you still need 10 turns to gather 20 resources. That +2 helps on some strict situations(coal power plant? No aluminum for bombers?) I guess?

    Hong Kong: 9

    Industrial: +4
    +20% for City projects: +5, very useful for SV, and, nuclear projects? Oh, converting to and repairing nuclear power plants! (Actually this one best suits for the Catherine second personality, and Brazilian Carnival I guess)

    Hunza: 10

    Commercial: +6
    +1 gold per 5 tiles: +4, this one yields much more than Bandar Brunei!

    Jerusaleum: 15

    Religious: +13
    Cities with a Holy Site exerts as much religious pressure as Holy City: +2, the religious pressure is good to let your newly settled cities converted to your religion.

    Kabul: 9

    Militaristic: +5
    Double Experience on combat initiated: +4, quicker upgrade means more frequent regeneration.

    Kandy: 18

    Religious: +13
    Get a relic per wonder, +50% faith on relics: +5, you need temples to store relics, or you just waste the chance.

    Kumasi: 22

    Cultural: +11
    Trade route to city state get +2 culture and +1 gold per district from original city: +11, given some CS has such bonus, how can Hunza or Bandar Brunei be designed?

    La Venta: 15

    Religious: +13
    Can build Colossal Head: +2

    Lahore: 26

    Militaristic: 5
    Can faith purchase Nihang: +21, advanced unit out of its era, also very cheap.

    Lisbon: 7

    Commercial: 6
    Trade Route cannot be plunder on sea: +1

    Mexico City: 6

    Industrial: 4
    +3 radius for IZ and EZ buildings: +2

    Mitla: 21

    Scientific: 17
    +15% growth for campus: +4

    Mohenjo-Daro: 14

    Cultural: 11
    Bonus housing for cities without fresh water: +3, anyone tested how it works for Maya?

    Muscat: 9

    Commercial: 6
    CH +1 Amenity: +3

    Nan Madol: 24

    Cultural: 11
    Districts on or next to coast gain +2 Culture: +13, this one is game-changing. The bonus includes city centers.

    Nazca: 16

    Religious: 13
    Can build Nazca Line: +3, though this one can create some insane-yield tiles, the cost of creating these tiles is a lot of builder charges, not an economic solution.

    Ngazargamu:17

    Militaristic: 5
    -20% purchase cost on land military units per encampment building: +12, This one stacks with Theocracy, making purchasing units insanely cheap. Though come a little bit late.

    Preslav: 6

    Militaristic: 5
    +2 loyalty per encampment building: +1, maybe a little bit useful when capturing a city with encampment and buildings inside...

    Rapa Nui: 34

    Cultural: 11
    Can build Moai: +23, the best CS.

    Singapore: 6

    Industrial: 4
    city receive +2 production for each foreign civilization it has trade route to: +2

    Taruga:23

    Scientific: 17
    +5% science per strategic resource within the border of a city: +6, shifting tiles so as to maximize the bonus? Anyway, strategic resources are rare.

    Valletta: 22

    Militaristic: 5
    Can faith purchase city center & encampment buildings: +10
    Walls -50% cost but can only be purchased with faith: +2, the discount is good, however we don't need a lot of walls.

    Vatican City: 15

    Religious: 13
    +400 pressure to nearby cities when activating GP: +2, can a Great Artist spread 1200 pressure?

    Venice: 7

    Commercial: 6
    +1 gold per luxury at destination: +1

    Vilnius:11

    Culture: 11
    +50% adj for theatre square for the highest alliance level: 0, The description is hard to understand. How does this work? Anyone successfully making this work?

    Yerevan: 28

    Religious: 13
    Apostles can choose promotions: +15, deterministic factor for RV, not sure for other types of victories.

    Zanzibar: 12

    Commercial: 6
    Grant 2 luxuries, each with +6 amenity: +6, Hope Buenos Aires may learn sth.

    Tier list:

    Game changing(25+, ): Rapa Nui, Geneva, Yerevan, Lahore

    Powerful (20-25): Bologna,Antananarivo,Valletta,Taruga,Nan Madol,Kumasi,Granada,Babylon

    Others: others

    This also suggests that if your birth place is near a lot of CSs, (5 normal CSs, or a combination of Rapa Nui, Geneva and Lahore), a blank Civ is actually as strong as Gran Columbia with no nearby CS, better than other powerful Civs like Russia, Aztecs or China.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020
  4. Minou

    Minou Prince

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    One other thing to consider is Kilwa. Thus 2 Science City States >> 1 Science City State. I would say this makes me more happy to have, say, 2 Religious City States or 2 Industrial City States than 1 of each, Suzerain bonus aside.
     
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  5. Siddharth Venkatesh

    Siddharth Venkatesh Warlord

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    Regarding Vatican, yes, each use of an Artist or Writer will spread pressure.
     
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  6. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    For lols, one should try Lahore + Ngazargamu in the same game.

    I just had that in my Byzantium game. Nihang armies at the cost of 160 faith each. :lol:
     
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  7. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Emperor

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    I'd add a new tier called "game changing with the right setup which isn't TOO arcane/overly specific that'll never really happen", being mostly for Nazca and Auckland. I'd also put Rapa Nui there.
     
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  8. Deadly Dog

    Deadly Dog Warlord

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    I'd agree there are times when those "strong" CS become game changing: Auckland and Nan Madol are game changers with water maps/civs.

    Everyone loves Kumasi but Mansa Musa and RR Teddy more so (among others).

    I've played BM Teddy twice since August and BOTH times Grenada spawned nearby. Second time, knowing what I was doing, I had Alcazars with +4 Culture and +6/7/8 science everywhere. Ambiorix, however, can't see him being impressed with pretty forts.

    Great list. The top 2 tiers are all names I agree are either strong or game changing, though I know I never exploit Rapa Nui enough and I think Cahokia is pretty amazing.
     
  9. Palo

    Palo Chieftain

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    Mohenjo-Daro does nothing for Maya.
     
  10. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    seems like the rankings are for a very specific playstyle. which is fine. but many of your top choices are useless to me, and I assume vice versa. Auckland not even in the top 2 tiers worthy of mention? ok.
     
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  11. JesseS

    JesseS Warlord

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    I would rank La Venta a good amount higher. They're amazing for closing out culture victories, where you can create a nice lattice of wooded national parks and colossal heads. Their max yield is 10 faith and tourism per tile, with earth goddess, humanism, flight, and 6 adjacent woods. And they can be built in tundra, unlike moais.

    As for Villinus, it can be powerful if you cultivate an early alliance and have high adjacency theater squares. If you have a level 1 alliance, it boosts TS adjacency by 50% (rounded down to the nearest whole number), and if you have a level 2 alliance, it boosts TS adjacency by 100%. Level 3 alliances are basically impossible to achieve in any competitively-played game, but would boost by 150%. I generally find that it contributes about as much raw culture as Nan Madol in relatively peaceful cultural or science games (though it's obviously a lot worse in water-based or domination games).
     
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  12. Deadly Dog

    Deadly Dog Warlord

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    Thank you. Like OP I never truly understood that bonus. I never start alliances early enough for this though.
     
  13. Futumch

    Futumch Calm as a Coma

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    I've had Vatican City in a few recent games, and their suzerain bonus converts your wandering GPs into religious cluster bombs. Colaeus, for example, can pick up a luxury in your opponent's heartland and boom! flips four cities religions to your own. Similarly any of the Great Admirals who don't have to be in your territory to be activated can really help convert coastal cities.
    The bonus is also very good for shoring up your religion at home in cities that haven't adopted your faith yet.
     
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  14. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    You just can't. It's not available until Civil Service which takes a long while and then you have to level the alliance.
     
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  15. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Well, I once thought it is +50% when you have a lvl.3 alliance? But actually you can get 50% from lvl.1 and 100% from lvl.2, and 150% from lvl.3?

    How does this stack with double adj card? Sounds a lot of bonus. Suppose you're playing Greece, will every +4 acropolis become +20, and +6 become +30?
     
  16. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Nope, sadly it's additive.

    So
    +100% from card
    +150% from CS bonus

    250% total

    100+ 250 = 350

    so with 6

    It is 6*3.5 = 21

    Example: https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/be6jea/58_culture_theater_place_adjacency_bonus/

    This theater square is 16 base. With the CS and card, it's 56 (16x3.5), and 2 more for Nan Madol. for a total of 58
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020
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  17. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Oh I get it.

    I guess the best is Japan+ 6 Entertainment Complex, this yields 18 base adj. 18*3.5=63

    and with Nan Madol and the Golden Age dedication, we can get extra +3, so 63+3=66 is the max?

    However, it seems impossible to form a lvl.3 alliance in Classical or Medieval Era? And also you can't build entertainment complex on water, So the achievable is only 63?

    How about Australia with 4 entertainment complex, 1 water wonder and 1 Machu Pichu? This will make the base bonus to 18 but also allowing Nan Madol, so 65?
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020
  18. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Well that is the issue. How fast could you get this alliance before the game ends; and even if you could, would you even bother?
     
  19. gcampono

    gcampono Chieftain

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    I mostly agree with that list, and really like the commentaries, but in multiplayer it changes dramatically. For instance Geneva is not that good (it's an open invitation to be declared war).
     
  20. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Well, in MP CSs don't start with walls, and everyone just capture them ASAP... Why fund a potential enemy, especially when it is next to your cities? Also as they don't start with walls capturing them is easy.
     

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