[GS] Scoring Civilizations(GS)

[Lily_Lancer]

Sumeria:
War-Cart:92
Adventures of Enkidu: 0
Epic Quest:5
Zigguraut: 18

Synergy:0

Overall Score:115

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Sweden:
Nobel Prize: 13 (3 on standard speed)
It comes at the Industrial Era, which leads to very different scoring on online and standard speed due to the era system. The awards are really good, for example, university +1 aluminum and uranium...

Carolean: 22, this takes down cities very quickly.

Minerva of the North: 6

Open-Air Museum: 6, although comes late, but the bonus is very large.

Synergy: Open-air Museum and Carolean: 1 for they are basically on same tech line. (You need Corps and then you research Nationalism)

Overall Score:48

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Zulu:
Amabutho: 42, +15 strength on Mercenaries, wow.
Isibongo: 9, If you don't have Amabutho, Isibongo does not have very large use in fact.
Impi: 5, I prefer muskets
Ikanda: 6

Synergy: Ikanda and Amabutho: 10
Isibongo and Amabutho: 25
Impi and Amabutho:5

Overall Score:102

 

[Lily_Lancer]

India:
Dharma: 26, In GS Dharma adds an amenity for each religion in the city. This change is really big since it offers a lot of Free amenity. Amenity is really expensive. Even if only 1 amenity this equals to a policy slot+ a scout per city. For Dharma you may gain multiple.
Varu: 26
Stepwell: 5, helpful early improvement for fast 10 population.
Satyagraha: 9
Arthashastra: 10

Synergy: Varu and Arthashastra:0 Yes Arthashastra gives bonus to Varus, but they're at different time points. In fact a little contradict to each other. You either rush with early Varu, or wait until a territorial expansion war.
Varu and Satyagraha:-3
Dharma and Varu: 1 War helps to spread religions and the bonus amenity is good to support amenity loss from wars.
Dharma and Arthashastra: 1

Overall Score:
Gandhi's India: 63
Chandragupta's India: 69

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Khmer:
Monasteries of the King: 4
Grand Barays: 3, First you need to build Aqueducts, Oh no.
Domrey: 0
Prasat: 5, Missionaries are hard to sacrifice since they cannot begin an attack, and have to find enemy apostles.

Synergy: Monasteries of the King and Prasat:0, hard to give it a 1, so I give it 0.

Overall Score: 12

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Inca:
Qhapaq Nan:4
Mit'a: 2, only when you have earth goddess this is useful.
Terrace Farm: 16, amazing yields
Warak'aq: 8 It seems really strong if you upgrade it to lvl.3, however I never upgraded any of my scouts to lvl.3.

Synergy: Terrace Farm and Mit'a:2

Overall Score: 32

Inca is good for its starting bias, it's abilities look like Canada.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Japan:
Meiji Restoration: 9
Divine Wind: 30, the +100% production towards certain kind of districts is really strong. The +5 strength is not bad, too.
Electronic Factory: 2 Really hope the 4 culture extends to all cities within 6 tiles.
Samurai: 16, A key unit.

Synergy: Meiji and Divine Wind: 3

Overall Score: 60

 

[Pietato]

Discounting proper trading makes this relatively pointless.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Terrace farm is 50. Stronger than Dharma.
Warakaq is 80. Resource less. Can be upgraded to. Shows up very early. Up there with the Pitati.

Very easy to level with 100% recon card and farming cities for experience. Gains 14 or so experience/turn attacking a city. Also, AI is dumb and sends it units at you allowing easy leveling. Once you get half a dozen of them up to level 3, nothing stops them until Ballistics or Steel.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Well, I think it's about time other people try making lists. I'm sure we shouldn't focus the attention all on criticizing just one set. Here's mine.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LCQVlbNdo_OWwB71_bNUGY7twTYInwEI/view?usp=sharing

Thoughts:

I suppose I don't understand the power of pillage yet, and I play on Fractal maps which often means you don't get a neighbor to sack. YMMV. I remain skeptical about Norway.

Arabia is not very good anymore ever since Mamluk's require iron, Poland got hit by it too. They seem really awkward now.

RIP Kongo. I think that nerf to writing really hurt them, and now that Rock Bands are a major part of a culture victory their inability to make Holy Sites or even take them has become quite a drag.

It did seem pretty hard as there are civs which I think are good but don't add up so I felt like making stuff up. True story. I guess things are more than the sum of their parts. "Synergy" seems underlooked. In the end it didn't even really match the tier list I made earlier so there is a lot of subjective stuff depending on your map settings.

Also I am pretty sure I flipped the UA/CA a few times. I don't care.

 

[playshogi]

Discounting proper trading makes this relatively pointless.

Please explain what you mean by "proper trading" and what is "pointless".

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Well, I think it's about time other people try making lists. I'm sure we shouldn't focus the attention all on criticizing just one set. Here's mine.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eIzaSUmPXnP_jXGpmcsnLz3qUn8HOx3l8e5BLgY74P0/edit?usp=sharing

Thoughts:

I suppose I don't understand the power of pillage yet, and I play on Fractal maps which often means you don't get a neighbor to sack. YMMV. I remain skeptical about Norway.

Arabia is not very good anymore ever since Mamluk's require iron, Poland got hit by it too. They seem really awkward now.

RIP Kongo. I think that nerf to writing really hurt them, and now that Rock Bands are a major part of a culture victory their inability to make Holy Sites or even take them has become quite a drag.

It did seem pretty hard as there are civs which I think are good but don't add up so I felt like making stuff up. True story. I guess things are more than the sum of their parts. "Synergy" seems underlooked. In the end it didn't even really match the tier list I made earlier so there is a lot of subjective stuff depending on your map settings.

Also I am pretty sure I flipped the UA/CA a few times. I don't care.

I don't take starting bias into account in this scoring, since I don't exactly know how it works and how much it may influence a game. Making it hard to give a number. There are only some naive descriptions in wiki that only innocent people may satisfy on.

But they do work. For instance, Japan, Persia and Poland may have very bad starting bias (no tundra bonus but related to tundra) and make them weaker. On the other hand, Brazil, Kongo and Inca may born on fertilized lands due to starting bias so they always feel much better than their rankings without starting bias.


Our scoring on most of the unique units do not match. For example, in my opinion Maryannu is better than Pitati archer, second to War-Cart and of the same strength of Eagle Warriors since by theory it is much stronger than Pitati and I also have played a lot of GS post-September Egypt games.

I guess you also undervalued Ottoman Janissary and Spanish Conquistador. Maybe you're referring to a map with a lot of sea, but I also see Indonesia Jong gets a pretty bad ranking so I feel confused. How can Indonesia Jong be worse than De Zeven Provincia?

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Thoughts:

I suppose I don't understand the power of pillage yet, and I play on Fractal maps which often means you don't get a neighbor to sack. .

For a pillage game you need to think very differently. Units have much higher value on pillage games so on these games I usually don't have a lot of plain science and culture output, but build units to pillage them.

Norway is good not only for its heavy pillage yields, but also for its ability to pillage everywhere. When you start a pillage game, all your goal is to pillage as much tiles as possible, so you shall consider the followings.

1: Declare war on CS only to pillage its tiles is highly appreciated.
2: Don't capture builders and wait for them to fix pillaged tiles. Don't kill the goose when it is producing golden eggs.
3: Have a sense on which tile the enemy may have sight, and stand outside of enemy sight range. The enemy will not try to fix when your troop is nearby, so you'd better pretend you have gone and get back a few turns later.
4: Even pillaging a single tile yields a lot, don't be afraid of declaring war on your enemy even if you only find one good place to pillage.

 

[lotrmith]

I don't take starting bias into account in this scoring, since I don't exactly know how it works and how much it may influence a game. Hard to give a number.

But they do work. For instance, Japan, Persia and Poland may have very bad starting bias (no tundra bonus but related to tundra) and make them weaker. On the other hand, Brazil, Kongo and Inca may born on fertilized lands due to starting bias so they always feel much better than their rankings without starting bias.


Our scoring on most of the unique units do not match. For example, in my opinion Maryannu is better than Pitati archer, second to War-Cart and of the same strength of Eagle Warriors since by theory it is much stronger than Pitati and I also have played a lot of GS post-September Egypt games.

I guess you also undervalued Ottoman Janissary and Spanish Conquistador. Maybe you're referring to a map with a lot of sea, but I also see Indonesia Jong gets a pretty bad ranking so I feel confused. How can Indonesia Jong be worse than De Zeven Provincia?

https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Starting_bias_(Civ6)

 

[Archon_Wing]

How can Indonesia Jong be worse than De Zeven Provincia?

You know, that is true. Must be a typo for Netherlands.

 

[vladisimo]

How germany is tier 5 is absolutely beyond me..they have some of the most OP qualities in the game. Neither brazil or netherlands as t5 doesn't make any sense.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

How germany is tier 5 is absolutely beyond me..they have some of the most OP qualities in the game. Neither brazil or netherlands as t5 doesn't make any sense.

I guess the reason is clear. City States start with walls now. So the most powerful part of Germany is seriously nerfed.

 

[MarigoldRan]

These scoring competitions are pointless until you can get replayable maps/positions with same civs. Without a set starting point (experimental control), these threads are just large blog posts of some dude spouting his own biases and passing it off as authoritative.

 

[gcampono]

While I agree that these scoring competitions are fundamentally biased, they still are very interesting. Your idea is however very interesting (but civs also have a starting bias, so even this method would yield biased results unless you really are able to play all starting position biases with all civs ... which is probably impossible even for the most dedicated fans)...

However, I would like to ask lily (or others) if they have collected some statistics like the average victory time by civ / victory type.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

While I agree that these scoring competitions are fundamentally biased, they still are very interesting. Your idea is however very interesting (but civs also have a starting bias, so even this method would yield biased results unless you really are able to play all starting position biases with all civs ... which is probably impossible even for the most dedicated fans)...

However, I would like to ask lily (or others) if they have collected some statistics like the average victory time by civ / victory type.

It is hard to say "average" since I only have played ~300 hours of Civ6 games and therefore very little data points.
I guess the number is 120~140 turns on online speed. Every type of victory seems to end at this range in my experience. So online speed is a better balanced scenario in my view.


For standard speed, it varies by victory type.

Timings from my own experiences just as a reference for standard speed deity difficulty (other settings standard)

Domination: 140~170 turns on Pangaea, 150~180 on Continents
Science: 170~190 turns
Culture: Maybe 170 turns on average, but for this one you either wins very quickly or you wins very slowly so there is big variation. I'd like to say 130~200 turns. Still continents yields a lot later victory times like 150~200 turns so the average become 180.
Diplomatic: 200~210 turns, this is the most stable one, it is >90% guaranteed that on every map with every Civ you always win at this range. (Maybe except the worst twins on Diplomatic Victory, Kongo and Canada)

Religious: This one has the largest variance. I can't give an exact number. Maybe 100~170 turns on Pangaea and 150~180 on Continents.

Yes, all the above depends on Civs, but there are too many Civs so analysing all the situations is really a hard job.