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[SDK] Dale's Combat Mod!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by Dale, Apr 27, 2006.

  1. Fosse

    Fosse Prince

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    I have downloaded the mod for Warlords and gotten into a small war just to see how it plays out.

    I am very excited about getting to know this mod. Like everyone else, I have questions though.

    If an attacker attacks a group of defenders on a tile, will those defenders behave as a stacked army if they have not been grouped by the player/AI? For example, if my units are all sent to a rally point, and fortified when they arrive, will they count as a stack if attacked at some point? Does being in a city effect this?

    After some attacks, some of my stack will not have used any of their movement points. Reading through these forums, it seems that this could be a result of that unit not having had a melee "buddy" to fight against on the opposing line. Is this correct?

    How do unit specific promotions play out in combat? Do the units get randomly shuffled in combat, and you just have to hope that your Shock, Combat III axeman winds up fighting an enemy sword instead of an enemy Shock Horse Archer? Not understanding this, I am tempted to go with nothing but Combat and City Raider promotions.

    How does the Barrage promotion work, with collateral damage having been removed as we know it?

    Am I correct in understanding that unless you bring units from different "lines" into an army stack there is no benefit in combat to grouping units? What I mean by that is, if there are two armies of nothing but axemen, the final result won't really be different if they fight one by one or as a group, will it? Throwing a couple of archers into one side will make a difference though, because archers occupy a different "line." Am I understanding this?

    Will ranged units "step up" to the front lines? I had a two archer stack make neat work of an enemy axeman, so I assume one of them was "frontline" and one was "ranged."

    In the same archer/axeman battle I just mentioned, one of my archers died but I didn't see a combat log event telling me so.

    And lastly, what are the odds we could one day get a "stacked Combat" tab on the event log? What I would like to see is a list of how the matchups happened without all the clutter of individual combat rounds and damages. One stacked combat can make the regular combat log very difficult to interpret. I picture something that details the four lines for each side, then describes the damage done to each side in each phase of combat.
     
  2. Trojan Sheep

    Trojan Sheep Chu Bosu

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    I apologize if this has already been brought up before, but I tried this mod in multiplayer with a friend last night and every time combat occured we got an out of sync error that forced them to have to disconnect and reconnect. This is running on a direct IP connection, and we never had any problems before the mod. Has anyone been able to get it to work for multiplayer?

    The mod concept looks absolutely fantastic (although my experiences in CIV 3 have left me very iffy about field bombardment), I really hope there's a way to get it working for multiplayer.
     
  3. Anjin Sushi

    Anjin Sushi Chieftain

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    I find all Fosse's questions very relevant as well. Especially the 2 archers against one axeman is interesting. I understand that this situation would be quite different whether the archers or axeman attack. If the axeman attacks, the archers both get a free shot at the axeman. Afterwords he then attacks one of the archers in a melee combat.

    If the archers (in second line) attack they both get a free shot. But since the attacker has no Mellee units there is no melee combat (refering to the attack phase on page 1 of this thread), so at no time the axeman actually gets to fight?? Is this correct?
     
  4. boneys26

    boneys26 BTS Play session tester

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    Early in the game I've always just had warriors and archers stacked then i head for swordsmen and longbow men asap so i don't really use the warrior apart from those barbs that like to pop up now and then
     
  5. upstart

    upstart Warlord

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    Oct 4, 2005
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    Based on everybody's input it seems like my own preliminary suspicions were correct: basically ranged units become uber and melee get nerfed in usefullness, especially in attacking. I really hope that some kind soul from firaxis can help in the effort to take care of the graphics engine limitation, or at least suggest a work-around...

    Until this happens maybe can you Dale or someone else please compile and release a stripped-down version of the mod without the true stacked combat? Because even just the ranged bombardment section of the mod is a godsend, all by itself. I Love the additions to the core gameplay but the game just doesn't seem to be balanced with the stacked combat in its current form.
     
  6. Dale

    Dale Deity

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    Okay a long list of replies coming up. :)

    Doompigeon (and others):

    That's a bug found. The warlords version is not adding up points for battles.

    upstart:

    1. No, you can't turn off just stack attack (unless you turn off the option in CvDefines.h and recompile the code).
    2. Was there another unit with Heal II in the same plot that could heal that unit?
    3. 0.0 is a rounding thing. It just means the unit has health between 0.5 and 0.0.
    4. Archers covered by melee units are a powerful thing. It's the one free shot that can really hurt you. I've seen an archer take out half a warrior's strength. Then the defending warrior just needs a lucky shot (not that rare) to take out the rest of the attacking warrior's health. It's all about the lines. ;)

    Anjin Sushi:

    1. Yes, it is quite possible for the attackers to not win. In that example, the longbow will defend with its free shot, then one sword will attack via melee attack till one unit is dead. If that unit happens to be the sword then the other two can't attack. But they retain their move points and can do further actions (such as re-attacking the longbow).

    2. Maybe realistic, maybe not. I've chosen it that way. It was a matter of balance. If the defending ranged units just concentrated on the attacking melee units I found the attacker nearly always lost. Not exactly fair "in a game". :) Fun over-rode reality.

    3. Hehehe. With the new stack method, city stacks are harder to take out. Remember the basics: siege, siege, siege. This is where field bombard shines. It's ability to knock out city defenses AND unit health.

    Quetz:

    It's all about stack quality, not stack quantity now. In an effort to stamp out SOD's I've enhanced ranged attacking. Basically if you have a stack of 15 swords, and attack a smaller well-balanced combined arms stack, the stack of swords will loose most of the time. In every war in history, it's not the number of troops you have, but how you use your troop combinations together to support each other. Like there are certain unit types to use against other unit types (eg: spear vs horse) there are stack combos to use against other stack combos. I ain't gunna say what they are, it's half the fun of finding out. :) Boneys will tell you, attacking cities requires a completely different stack combo to field combat. ;)

    strategyonly:

    Thanks for the files. BTW, barbs were changed quite a lot in Warlords. That's not the mod doing that. ;)

    sweetpete:

    The combat odds calculator is screwed in this mod. I still don't know how I'm going to fix it.

    Fighters need to be on carriers, or an attack initiated from a city with fighters based in it. Fighters do not move like normal units, so you can't just stack them with land units. If there are fighters in the city or on a carrier they are automatically used. Do try to select them in your land stack. :)

    It's best to play a game and watch the results.

    Quetz:

    Missiles can't do recon missions. As for the rebase mission I kept that one there. I didn't want to add the micro-management of having to carry the missile in another unit though. I want to keep MM down, not add to it. :)

    Fosse:

    For the player no they must be stacked. For the AI yes as they don't stack as much as they should.

    Not entirely. They haven't found a counter-battery or melee opponent.

    The shuffle is in stack order. So when a stack is selected (showing the list of units above the control panel) the spread of units is from the centre out working left to right on the list of units.

    Collatoral damage is still used in field bombardment.

    That's correct. As mentioned above, a melee only stack will have a lot harder time than a combined stack will.

    They don't "step up" as you say, but if there is no melee cover for the archer it will perform a full combat. Your example would have worked as such:
    - Archer 1 performs free shot at axe damaging the axe.
    - Archer 2 performs full combat with axe (but taking into account first strikes probably had a free shot at the axe first).

    Interesting, should have occured.

    Could be possible one day, but with my current list of commitments will be a way off yet.

    Trojon sheep:

    I'll look into the multiplayer thing to see if I can get it to keep sync. I don't know how successful that will be though.

    upstart:

    It's not exactly like this. Some full combats will occur in a ranged/bombard only stack. If one of those units does not have covering units in front of it then it will be a full combat. Otherwise it gets the free shot. Also, I do not believe this makes them uber. It just highlights that a balanced combined arms stack should always have an easier time in fighting than a melee only stack. This is how real war works too.

    Think of it like this. If I have only infantry and charge an artillery position then those units are going to rip my attack to shreds. However, if I have less infantry and support them with tanks (flankers) and my own artillery then my artillery will tie up the defending artillery whilst my tanks outflank them giving my infantry the breathing space they need to charge. In the first example my infantry will die or be severly damaged. In the second example the defending artillery will be devastated.

    This is how the mod works. Basically, it's an entirely new way of thinking about combat in Civ4. As any of the beta testers will atest to, you cannot use the old methods in this mod. They will not work. Especially when attacking a combined stack in a city. That's why you need to siege the city first to eliminate the defense bonus and damage the defending units, then you assault the city.

    Dale
     
  7. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    Let me know when you have an update available, i cant do anything till then, and WOW what a list of question and answers, I knew it.:p
     
  8. Snerk

    Snerk Smeghead

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    Thanks Dale, that answered a lot of my questions! :)

    One more thing though, when bombarding units pick a unit and bombard in stack attacking. Do they then do collateral damage? I guess not but just to make it clear...
     
  9. Star Captain

    Star Captain Chieftain

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    This mod sounds very promising. I appreciate all the work you've put into developing and supporting this mod.

    However, I have noticed two issues with bombardment: first, the trebuchet has a bombard range of 2, which doesn't seem right when apparently only artillery and other modern-era units share that range. Second, I can't seem to bombard any tiles within my borders, even if enemy units occupy those tiles (this was with the same trebuchets; I hadn't built any other bombard units). I had a couple of invading AI trebuchets bombarding my defenders, but when I tried to set up some defensive counter-fire, I couldn't. Bombarding a tile outside my borders worked just fine. This reminds me of how you can't nuke any unit or tile belonging to a non-enemy civ, including yourself. I hate both targeting limitations, whether they be bugs or features, and I'd like to know if there's a way to disable one or both.

    Also, is there a way to automatically load this mod each time I start the game, without having to manually load it through the menu and be dumped to the desktop for another few minutes each time?

    Thank you.
     
  10. Anjin Sushi

    Anjin Sushi Chieftain

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    Dale thanks for all the answers. Im ready to try it out again as my suspicions were right - I need to change my stack composition.

    How do I see the event log with the result of battles?

    Anjin Sushi
     
  11. Titi

    Titi Prince

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    Welcome Star Captain...
    You've got two possibilities:
    - either you open your civilization.ini file and change the line
    ; Specify a Mod folder (Mods\Mesopotamia), '0' for none
    Mod = 0
    to Mod=MODS\Dales (or whatever name you put it in).
    But in that case you'll start Civ 4 with Dales Combat Mod every time.

    - or you create a shortcut with mod="\Dales Combat Mod" at the end.
    This option allows you to have different "versions" of the game without changing the .ini file every time you want to change the mod. ;)
     
  12. Dale

    Dale Deity

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    sweetpete:

    There's no collatoral damage in stack attacking, only in field bombardment. :)

    Star Captain:

    You have found a bug. I'll make sure that you can bombard inside your borders next version. :) Thanks. As for the treb range, I actually had it on 1 to start with, but the treb increased bombardment range over catapults massively. The range wasn't met with modern units until artillery. If there's more calls to lower the treb range I will do it. Otherwise, just open the units xml file, look for trebs and modify the tag iDCMBombRange to 1. :)

    Anjin:

    Through the normal combat log. On the top left is a log button. Click this then the tab market "Combat". The results show in there.

    Dale
     
  13. keldath

    keldath LivE LonG AnD PrOsPeR

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    hey dale,
    i really hope youll be able to make it mp compatibble.

    keep up the holy work
     
  14. Star Captain

    Star Captain Chieftain

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    Thanks for the prompt replies, Titi and Dale. I made the changes that each of you advised and they worked, so...now I'll just have to look forward to that update. :)

    One more thing though: might it be possible to allow the two new missile units to rebase to or be loaded onto submarines somehow? That would be a nice feature, and I don't recall seeing any mention of it in this thread.
     
  15. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    How the heck is everyone getting so far, i cant even make it out of the medival area?:crazyeye:
     
  16. ryant

    ryant Chieftain

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    Just d/l this mod for warlords, and its very fun. I have some questions and/or comments on aspects of the stacked combat.

    1) I think its mentioned before, but there are no great general points being added. I'm wondering how it will work in the future though? Any time a combat win occurs it will add points?

    2) To clarify for ranged attacks: a maceman with no first strikes attacking a longbowman with 1 first strike, will the longbowman get 2 free hits on the maceman since the longbowman gets a range attack, then in the melee phase he gets his first strike?

    2a) If this is the case, can you do the lines more in terms of first strike capabilities then ranged vs. melee? Since I think that is what first strike is trying to achieve.

    2b) This way you can use your flanking as a true counter to the archers. Since the first stikes will cancel each other. And they will fight each other in the ranged stage.

    3) Are there any ranged attacks in the early/late gunpowder eras? Are the musketers, riflemen, grenaders, infantry all melee units or considered ranged attacks?

    4) City sieges are tough when longbowman and catapults are on a hill city with walls. Even my musketers/knights/macemen/pikemen with trebs just aren't able to take the city, I also included some longbowmen in the attack. The longbowman I don't think can get city attacker so they all seem to die in the initial volley. Its a fun nut to crack though. I decided to bypass the city and attack another one not on a hill. It was a lot easier to take.

    4a) Instead of being forced to get longbowmen in a city siege, I would rather have to use my horse archers or knights to fight and hopefully kill his archers in the ranged stage, then in the melee stage his pikemen can finish off my knights, then my macemen/musketers can attack his pikemen and other melee units.

    5) I would still keep the rockets, air and bombard catagories, but my proposal will be instead of having the ranged then melee and flanking units, I would seperate them by first strike capability. This way you would still need to have a combined arms approach, and it won't make archers too over powered. Since you can have other units with first strikes to counter them.

    Sorry for the long post, but this is an awesome mod. Thanks for your time and effort looking into this matter.
     
  17. Star Captain

    Star Captain Chieftain

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    I started a quick game in the Modern Era just for testing purposes. Don't worry, in my first game with this mod, I'm still in the medieval/Renaissance period myself.
     
  18. Alchemist11

    Alchemist11 Chieftain

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    I have the mod for vanilla Civ4, version 1.61.

    In the changes list (that you changed for version 1.02), you wrote:

    - Bug fix: AI turn not ending due to Gamebryo issue where an AI ranged/bombard unit would not be able to complete graphic mission due to a later unit over-riding it [CvUnit::updateStackCombat()]


    Well, I'm not sure if it's the same problem, but a computer's longbowmen attacked me, and I killed them with my own longbowmen in my city while defending.

    Then it says "Waiting for other Civilizations...", and won't change. It's happened about three times by now, and even after a few minutes it won't change.

    When I attack the computers (I reloaded and tried attacking them this time), it works fine. It's just when they attack me.

    I don't know what the problem is. I redownloaded from another site, and it still didn't work. I have version 1.02 and 1.61 of Civ4, and the mod works fine except for that, and it renders it unplayable.

    Sorry if this has been answered already, I read the last page or 2 and didn't seem to find anything on it.
     
  19. upstart

    upstart Warlord

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    Yeah, what this is is the animation stall that several ppl have been reported. I am assuming it is being fixed for the next update or so. In order to workaround it, you can click on "enable quick defense"(and attack just in case) in the options panel, so it doesn't show the animation, just tells you the result of the combat.

    And thanks for the answers Dale. Looking forward to the next version of your great mod.
     
  20. rockinroger

    rockinroger WoC Team Member

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    Hey dale got a update for you. on the warlords version i am on modern time. I am about to take number 2 julius ceasar. hes been a pain in my a-- for awhile. everything has been stable, no problems with crashes. Appreciate your work!!!!!!!
     

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