Second Leaders: Which Civs Need Them?

[Zaarin]

So, more hated than Genghis Khan, Kublai Khaqan, Boniface I (the leader of the Fourth Crusade and first "Latin Emperor of Constantinople"), Don Carlos I (Spanish king at the time Hernan Cortes and Fransisco Pizzaro were tromping around), Timurlane, and I could go on, but those are good, pre-modern examples right there.

Yes, because none of those purged most of the extant records of the Punic language.

 

[halfhalfharp]

You're right, she kept her regency and after 1563, even if officialy the king (and then leader) is her son.

It's not question of capability. I didn't say great in the sence capable, but in sence "mark the history" (if we don't speak about Saint Barthelemy), maybe it's not good word ?

She is quite famous in Victor Hugo's "le Reine Margot", if you are a fan of reading and movies.

Say if Shakespeare didn't write abt Cleopatra, will she be so famous nowadays? I suppose, at least not possibly too famous in english speaking world.
Those rulers always live vividly in writers' hands.

 

[Phrozen]

Here is my list:

France and Egypt due to bad leader choices.
America, China, and England to show other sides of the civ. Really strange for England not to have any industrial revolution bonus for example.

 

[Nalain]

She is quite famous in Victor Hugo's "le Reine Margot", if you are a fan of reading and movies.

No didn't have readen nor watched "La reine Margot". The few i looked is we always come back to Saint Barthelemy and a little mistake is the writer is Alexandre Dumas (thanks wiki ). I need to have a look on this story.

 

[Patine]

Yes, because none of those purged most of the extant records of the Punic language.

Well, Boniface I destroyed priceless Orthodox Christian relics to smelt them down for gold and other precious materials, and even worse, the Conquistadors in allegiance to Don Carlos I burnt big piles of Aztec pictoglyphs (and the ones we have now are suspect for tampering with by Spanish missionaries) and killed everyone who could decipher the Rope-Knot Records of the Inca, making them unfathomable today, but, I guess if, your reckoning it's only specifically the description of PUNIC records that matters, than MAY have a point, in said self-contained parameters.

 

[Zaarin]

Well, Boniface I destroyed priceless Orthodox Christian relics to smelt them down for gold and other precious materials, and even worse, the Conquistadors in allegiance to Don Carlos I burnt big piles of Aztec pictoglyphs (and the ones we have now are suspect for tampering with by Spanish missionaries) and killed everyone who could decipher the Rope-Knot Records of the Inca, making them unfathomable today, but, I guess if, your reckoning it's only specifically the description of PUNIC records that matters, than MAY have a point, in said self-contained parameters.

Oh, I'm plenty furious at the Jesuits for destroying the Mayan and Aztec codices, at ISIS for destroying archaeological sites in Iraq and Syria, and anyone else who deliberately destroys knowledge or antiquities.

 

[God of Kings]

Really strange for England not to have any industrial revolution bonus for example.

A Scot invented the steam engine as we know it. A Scot wrote a treatise on capitalism.

 

[halfhalfharp]

No didn't have readen nor watched "La reine Margot". The few i looked is we always come back to Saint Barthelemy and a little mistake is the writer is Alexandre Dumas (thanks wiki ). I need to have a look on this story.

Oooops my poor memory

 

[ferretbacon]

So I've both suggested and supported an Ottoman/Byzantine double DLC pack with a "Fall of Constantinople" Scenario, but I think a cool alternative would be to save the Byzantines for an expansion and do an Ottoman civ/Polish alt leader pack instead. How cool would Jan Sobieski be at the head of Poland? They could do a Siege of Vienna Scenario with it. Jadwiga's saintly self (and heavenly hips ) would be replaced by the more militaristic Sobieski, who I think would jive very well with Golden Liberty and the Winged Hussar.

I think DLC civs can be fair game so long as they don't make owning the previous DLC required. If you own Jadwiga's Poland, great. But you don't have to have it. They could just throw in Poland with Jan Sobieski if you don't own Jadwiga already. No issues then.

Also, I still want Napoleon. I dislike CdM being the sole representative for France and La Vieille Garde cry out for their emperor! I would be cool with Louis XIV too. France just needs a good, solid, classic leader. CdM is enough experimentation for this entry in the series.

I think Lincoln should make his return as well. Could interact with both the Emergency system and Dark Ages in interesting ways.

I'd love Ramesses to head up Egypt yet again as the more bona fide Egyptian leader. Gotta have my Ozymandias, king of kings.

Isabella is turning into a meme, but I think she'd be fun to have again for Spain. Even if it's not creative, some sort of interaction with discovering natural wonders would be good, especially with how many we're going to have after R&F drops.

Elizabeth is a staple in the game as much as Gandhi, Shaka, or Alexander. She could help make England more English. Under Victoria, England is very British.

 

[Patine]

So I've both suggested and supported an Ottoman/Byzantine double DLC pack with a "Fall of Constantinople" Scenario, but I think a cool alternative would be to save the Byzantines for an expansion and do an Ottoman civ/Polish alt leader pack instead. How cool would Jan Sobieski be at the head of Poland? They could do a Siege of Vienna Scenario with it. Jadwiga's saintly self (and heavenly hips ) would be replaced by the more militaristic Sobieski, who I think would jive very well with Golden Liberty and the Winged Hussar.

I think DLC civs can be fair game so long as they don't make owning the previous DLC required. If you own Jadwiga's Poland, great. But you don't have to have it. They could just throw in Poland with Jan Sobieski if you don't own Jadwiga already. No issues then.

Also, I still want Napoleon. I dislike CdM being the sole representative for France and La Vieille Garde cry out for their emperor! I would be cool with Louis XIV too. France just needs a good, solid, classic leader. CdM is enough experimentation for this entry in the series.

I think Lincoln should make his return as well. Could interact with both the Emergency system and Dark Ages in interesting ways.

I'd love Ramesses to head up Egypt yet again as the more bona fide Egyptian leader. Gotta have my Ozymandias, king of kings.

Isabella is turning into a meme, but I think she'd be fun to have again for Spain. Even if it's not creative, some sort of interaction with discovering natural wonders would be good, especially with how many we're going to have after R&F drops.

Elizabeth is a staple in the game as much as Gandhi, Shaka, or Alexander. She could help make England more English. Under Victoria, England is very British.

At least Elizabeth I was an actual, bona fide LEADER who actually made real, important decisions and personally guided national policy, unlike Victoria...

 

[Vahnstad]

I think choosing CdM for France is disrespectful towards that civ. Same for Cleopatra as Egypt. The only two leader choices that I really - really - really disliked.

 

[halfhalfharp]

[

I think choosing CdM for France is disrespectful towards that civ. Same for Cleopatra as Egypt. The only two leader choices that I really - really - really disliked.

I won't say that is disrespectful, for there are not many female options for France. It is still a good try although she may not appear satisfying.

If they put up Napoleon people will complain abt the regularity. If they put up CdM, people will still complain abt the non-traditionality... Public opinions are just hard to balance i guess.

And for Cleo, she is one of the signatures of ancient Egypt, so I think choosing her is reasonable. But ofc we also have tons of reasons to dislike her, it is personal then.

 

[Nalain]

The poorest thing about the french leader is her capability in game, which doesn't make Catherine as good one. Spying can help, but alone is totally useless. Resolve this matter and Catherine would be a good and interesting leader, whatever we like her or not.

 

[Phrozen]

[


I won't say that is disrespectful, for there are not many female options for France. It is still a good try although she may not appear satisfying.

If they put up Napoleon people will complain abt the regularity. If they put up CdM, people will still complain abt the non-traditionality... Public opinions are just hard to balance i guess.

And for Cleo, she is one of the signatures of ancient Egypt, so I think choosing her is reasonable. But ofc we also have tons of reasons to dislike her, it is personal then.

Philip Augustus is the answer for France.

 

[halfhalfharp]

The poorest thing about the french leader is her capability in game, which doesn't make Catherine as good one. Spying can help, but alone is totally useless. Resolve this matter and Catherine would be a good and interesting leader, whatever we like her or not.

I guess it is not her problem alone. I hv posted a new thread discussing this matter. Pleasr kindly have a look if you are interested.

 

[Patine]

Philip Augustus is the answer for France.

I stand firm on Charles de Galle.

 

[Morningcalm]

Egypt is ripe for a second leader IMO, with France not too far behind.

But this all depends on whether Firaxis even bothers with a second leader for an existing Civ in its next expansion. It's possible such a leader could be DLC as well (with a scenario).

 

[nzcamel]

I stand firm on Charles de Galle.

Still shuddering
To be fair, he was a like mind for Churchill to keep the French fighting and resisting in WWII. Beyond that....

 

[Zaarin]

I stand firm on Charles de Galle.

Firaxis owes France an Ancien Régime leader after CdM.

Egypt is ripe for a second leader IMO, with France not too far behind.

But this all depends on whether Firaxis even bothers with a second leader for an existing Civ in its next expansion. It's possible such a leader could be DLC as well (with a scenario).

On the note of DLC leaders, I would love to see Shappur II lead Persia; he'd synergize with Persia's abilities so much better than Cyrus. True, Firaxis has in the past shown a willful ignorance about post-Achaemenid Persia, but Civ6 has broken a lot of traditions...

 

[Patine]

Firaxis owes France an Ancien Régime leader after CdM.


On the note of DLC leaders, I would love to see Shappur II lead Persia; he'd synergize with Persia's abilities so much better than Cyrus. True, Firaxis has in the past shown a willful ignorance about post-Achaemenid Persia, but Civ6 has broken a lot of traditions...

As long as said Ancien Regime leader is NOT Philippe IV. I just can't get behind a king who charges a whole order of knights on trumped up charges of heresy, blasphemy, and Devil-worship, with the full support of his cousin, Pope Clement III, and has them burnt at the stake and their assets liquidated to the Knights Hospitaler, ALL to avoid paying off the monumental debt he'd racked up to them.