Second Leaders: Which Civs Need Them?

Oh no, Eleanor might suit for a love story or drama but she is far from politically influential ruler. Catherine might not be liked, but she did rule. And she brought many unnoticed influence-- like the introduction of fork from Italy, when the rest of Europe was still using hands to grab food.
Eleanor had an extraordinary amount of influence, but she was more powerful as the duchess of Aquitaine or the queen of England than she was queen of France, and England isn't hard-pressed for qualified female leaders--France is. Eleanor would hardly be the first queen consort made a leader in the franchise. All that being said, I think France was a nonsensical choice for a female leader. I'm just saying that if I had to pick one for France, Eleanor would have been my choice out of all of France's poor options. Or, you know, we could have Marie Antoinette and let them eat cake. :mischief:
 
Matilda could work as she ran Normandy even after Henry II was crowned. Normandy at that time was the most powerful and wealthy duchy in France.
 
Matilda could work as she ran Normandy even after Henry II was crowned. Normandy at that time was the most powerful and wealthy duchy in France.
I'm probably the only one, but I would just love to carve France up into France, Normandy, and Brittany. :D But people are already complaining about Eurocentrism, so... :p
 
I'm probably the only one, but I would just love to carve France up into France, Normandy, and Brittany. :D But people are already complaining about Eurocentrism, so... :p
...so to anger them, Firaxis should release Central European DLC that would include Austria, Hungary and Bohemia :mischief:
 
...so to anger them, Firaxis should release Central European DLC that would include Austria, Hungary and Bohemia :mischief:
I'm game for the triumphant return of Maria Theresa, and I've always thought Hungary would be interesting. I don't know as much about Bohemia (except that it's the modern Czech Republic), but I'd be interested to learn. :D (Honestly, I think it's silly to say Civ6 has too many European civs. What is a problem is that we got most of Europe while leaving the rest of the world a little sparse--they could have filled up Europe a little more gradually.)
 
Second leader for Georgia/Colchis could be Medea, daughter of King Aetes of Colchis, niece of Circe, granddaughter of the sun god Helios.

LUA could be "Poisoner": Every time Georgia reaches a dark age Medea could choice another Civ to assassinate their actual leader. This Civ can not do anything for the next 5 turns. After that the second leader of that targeted Civ takes over the rule.

The Tamar LH sometimes already looks a little bit like Medea.
 
I have nothing against Eleanor of Aquitaine, but i will pray not having her as next leader for France. That just would be a bad and unfunny joke. :nono: Why not put Louis V in this way... :lol:
 
I have nothing against Eleanor of Aquitaine, but i will pray not having her as next leader for France. That just would be a bad and unfunny joke. :nono: Why not put Louis V in this way... :lol:
I was saying instead of CdM, not in addition to CdM. :lol:
 
I have a theory that the 18 vanilla civs were chosen specifically because they were each planned to get a second leader to represent a completely different regime/dynasty like with Maurya/India and the Delian/Peloppennesian Leagues.
  • America - George Washington (colonial America)
  • England - Aethelstan/Edward the Elder (unification of the heptarchy)
  • France - Charlemagne/Napoleon (Francia, French Empire)
  • Germany - Bismarck (German Republic)
  • Spain - Isabella I/Abd ar-Rahman III (Castille/Cordoba)
  • Russia - Yaroslav the Wise/Ivan IV/Stalin (Kievan Rus', Tsardom, USSR)
  • Norway - Erik the Red/Later Monarch (Greenland, Norway-Denmark/Norway-Sweden)
  • Rome - Theodora (Eastern Roman Empire)
  • Arabia - Abu Bakr/Muawiya/Abdulaziz (Rashidun/Umayyad/Saudi Arabia)
  • China - Emperor Wu/Wu Zetian/Empress Cixi/Yat-Sen (Jin, Tang, Qing, PR)
  • Japan - Himiko/Meiji/Ito Hirobumi (Wa, Japanese Empire, modern Japan)
  • Egypt - Ramses II/Narmer/Ahmose II (Ancient/Unified/New Kingdom) (v. Ptolemaic)
  • India - Chandragupta/Ghandi
  • Greece - Gorgo/Pericles

And here is where things start to stretch a bit, but they aren't impossible when you think of civ names as regionally unifying rather than culturally unifying:
  • Scythia - Atilla/Arthur (Huns/Sarmatians) (v. Massegatae) (descendants of Yamna/Srubna kurgan culture)
  • Sumer - Hammurabi/Sargon (Babylon/Assyria) (successors to the Sumer valley region)
  • Brazil - Arariboia (Tupi)

And finally, the one where I have to stretch the name to fit this rule:
  • Kongo - Patrice Lumumba/Alphonse Massamba De'bat (DR of Congo/R of Congo)
 
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Scythia - Atilla/Arthur (Huns/Sarmatians) (v. Massegatae) (descendants of Yamna/Srubna kurgan culture)
The ethnic identity of the Huns is still open to debate, but Eastern Iranian isn't even in the running--they were either Turkic or Germanic. Sarmatians or Alans...would be weird but doable.

Sumer - Hammurabi/Sargon (Babylon/Assyria) (successors to the Sumer valley region)
Babylon and Assyria as one civ, sure. Babylon, Assyria, and Sumer as one civ--one civ that is already horribly designed--would make me genuinely furious.

Brazil - Arariboia (Tupi)
Gotta love those Tupi street carnivals. :rolleyes:
 
The main reason I wouldn't blob Assyria and Babylon into one big Akkadian-speaking civ is that the ancients themselves preferred the division. Or rather, each of the two saw itself as the rightful overlord of the other.

Notwithstanding of course the fact that both of them formed large empires in turn (sometimes simultaneously).

If they were blogged together, it'd have to be a blob that constantly rebelled against itself and then conquered itself. Wash, rinse, repeat.

They may have spoken similar dialects, but generally speaking, they did not get along.
 
The ethnic identity of the Huns is still open to debate, but Eastern Iranian isn't even in the running--they were either Turkic or Germanic. Sarmatians or Alans...would be weird but doable.

Yeah I'd lean toward Sarmatia as well. Although honestly, that whole civ is weird. It seems half-born of wanting to represent PIE culture (but having to fast-forward to recorded history), and half-born of merely wanting Tomyris in the game. My opinion is, there doesn't seem to be much outside of the Saka archer tying the Scythia civ specifically to Iranians nor the Massagatae specifically. "Scythia" in this instance is part-blob, part-region. "Saka" just means "Scythian," which is more-blob-than-region, but could still describe another horseback archer civ in the Scythian region like the Huns. Kurgans were also pretty wide spread around the Scythian region and used by Huns.

The ethnic origin is really the only major difference between the Huns and the Massagatae, and so given just how generalized Scythia is I don't think the Huns would feel wrong as an extended representation of that region. If you look at Civ V's representation, not much changes. "Horse archer" becomes "Saka horse archer;" still mostly correct. Kurgans are still equally Hunnic. The Huns never had a city list and outside of Pokrovka and a couple far-east cities, the rest are geographically appropriate. The civ ability is equally Hunnic.

Furthermore, it would be one of the least offensive blob civs in Civ history. Present day Iran isn't in Scythia, so there's no loss of heritage in widening the ethnic representation. There aren't any surviving Hunnic cultures to my knowledge in the area, nor Xiongnu. In fact, the only thing that's mildly offensive about the prospect is semantics: calling the region "Scythia," if only because there isn't a better term for "That Steppe Nomad Region In South Caucasus Russia Between Kazakhstan And the Balkans." If anything adding the Atila (or a Sarmatian leader) would more clearly define "Scythia" and quiet complaints that Tomyris never lead the entirety of Scythia.

Babylon and Assyria as one civ, sure. Babylon, Assyria, and Sumer as one civ--one civ that is already horribly designed--would make me genuinely furious.

I'm afraid I have to agree with this, actually. Gilgamesh would make a great leader for a Babylon blob civ. But as a third choice, maybe a golden age leader, after the military and science leaders. Sumer is fine for what it's purpose was as an introductory civ, but that's the most compliment I can pay it.

Gotta love those Tupi street carnivals. :rolleyes:

And their Minas Geraes. It's admittedly the weakest idea next to Kongo. Australia doesn't have any aboriginal representation in its uniques either. BUT I'd still play the hell out of a Brazil Tupi leader. And the effect of cunhadismo resulted in a substantial portion of modern day Brazilians possessing some Tupi blood; so they actually are still celebrating in the carnivals. It would be an elegant way of acknowledging the Tupi half of Brazil's culture, as well as another facet of colonial relations: integration.
 
@PhoenicianGold Your arguments about the steppe do make sense. Ethnicity meant very little on the Eurasian Steppe, and bands shifted alliances, makeup, and lingua franca frequently. I'd love to see a Tupi civ, but I don't think Brazil's abilities fit them well--I'd rather see them with abilities focused on farming jungle tiles.
 
The main reason I wouldn't blob Assyria and Babylon into one big Akkadian-speaking civ is that the ancients themselves preferred the division. Or rather, each of the two saw itself as the rightful overlord of the other.

Notwithstanding of course the fact that both of them formed large empires in turn (sometimes simultaneously).

If they were blogged together, it'd have to be a blob that constantly rebelled against itself and then conquered itself. Wash, rinse, repeat.

They may have spoken similar dialects, but generally speaking, they did not get along.
Neither did Athens and Sparta. ;) Culturally, linguistically Assyria and Babylon properly belonged to the same civilization, and religiously it was just a question of who was top god: Marduk or Assur. I'd love to see separate civilizations, but I'd have no problem with seeing them as alternate leaders of one civilization if that's how we get both of them.
 
The main reason I wouldn't blob Assyria and Babylon into one big Akkadian-speaking civ is that the ancients themselves preferred the division. Or rather, each of the two saw itself as the rightful overlord of the other.

Notwithstanding of course the fact that both of them formed large empires in turn (sometimes simultaneously).

If they were blogged together, it'd have to be a blob that constantly rebelled against itself and then conquered itself. Wash, rinse, repeat.

They may have spoken similar dialects, but generally speaking, they did not get along.

Same with the Greeks until they were unified. And the Italic League. And the majority of pre-unification regional powers.

I agree that the logic of treating them as a single civ is tenuous given that they were never unified and were perpetually at war; it's about as logical as giving Persia Seleucid and Timurid alternate leaders.

BUT two things are certain. One, fans won't shut up about their precious Babylon civ. And two, even Babylon would have been the best of the three to represent, we are stuck here with Daddybro of Sumer and have to work around that.

I like the name of Akkadia, but I think Mesopotamia would be a better name for a Babylon/Assyria/Sumer blob civ.
 
Same with the Greeks until they were unified. And the Italic League. And the majority of pre-unification regional powers.

I agree that the logic of treating them as a single civ is tenuous given that they were never unified and were perpetually at war; it's about as logical as giving Persia Seleucid and Timurid alternate leaders.

BUT two things are certain. One, fans won't shut up about their precious Babylon civ. And two, even Babylon would have been the best of the three to represent, we are stuck here with Daddybro of Sumer and have to work around that.

I like the name of Akkadia, but I think Mesopotamia would be a better name for a Babylon/Assyria/Sumer blob civ.
Sumer doesn't fit at all. Their civilization was the basis for Babylon/Assyria, but they were culturally and linguistically distinct. And also extinct by the time Babylon/Assyria were in their heyday. I'd call it Babylon; the Assyrian kings are on the Babylonian king list after all. "Mesopotamia" is a Greek name and not really satisfactory. Akkad, Akkadia, Māt Akkadī, or Beth Nahrain would be better than Mesopotamia, at any rate.
 
@PhoenicianGold Your arguments about the steppe do make sense. Ethnicity meant very little on the Eurasian Steppe, and bands shifted alliances, makeup, and lingua franca frequently. I'd love to see a Tupi civ, but I don't think Brazil's abilities fit them well--I'd rather see them with abilities focused on farming jungle tiles.

Same here. Ideally they would have made Brazil just a tad less industrialized (or lumped the industry into Pedro's leader ability) to fit a Tupi leader. Nilo Pecanha would be a pretty great representation of the pardo side of Brazil at least...

Sadly I think the Tupi are a long shot unless we get a LOT of DLC civs. I'm pretty sure the Inca and maybe Colombia or the Taino will be in before the Tupi ever do. But I won't lose hope, because they deserve it nearly as much as the Inca and Mapuche.

EDIT: I also concede your point on Akkad. It makes the most sense.
 
We are fortunate enough to have sufficient information to make separate, well-rounded versions of both Babylon and Assyria.

We have separate Greece and Macedon in this game (despite Greece already having both Athens and Sparta).

We have England, Scotland, USA and Australia (maybe even Canada, ultimately).

We may ultimately have both Germany and Austria.

They can afford to devote enough energy to the Cradle of Civilization to do it sufficient justice in light of the precedents that have already been set for this installment.
 
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