Security or cover-up?

[Stolen Rutters]

The "visably shaking with rage" was a comment by the BBC jurno at the inquest doing an in-depth for Radio 5.

As I see it sign the jury up to the Official Secrets Act and show em the tape. At least sign up the coroner and show him so he can judge if this evidence is critical for the jury to see.

Signing the jury up will probably have to be the solution if the Def. Dept refuses to declassify. I had assumed the coroner had already been signed up because he has already been given the tape (if I read the article correctly).

 

[GinandTonic]

Signing the jury up will probably have to be the solution if the Def. Dept refuses to declassify. I had assumed the coroner had already been signed up because he has already been given the tape (if I read the article correctly).

Right you are. Man cant believe I missed that. Prob why he was so angry.

Doh.

 

[woody60707]

Actually the way the IC works is that a member nation can sue another member nation when they think justice has not been served. So for instance, were the UK and the US both members, and were the US not cooperative in the inquiry we're discussing in this thread, the UK could bring the US to the IC to get a trial.
A bit like the WTO.
But the IC would not intervene if the US cooperated with the UK, and the UK was satisfied with the way things are going.

EDIT: And I've completely lost myself with all these conditional tenses

Sue? umm I was talking about the International criminal court. A law suit by one state to another state would be more a world court thing. (i don't know much about the world court tho.)

But the International criminal court would as i understand it would never be used in a case like this. As i understand it, the International criminal court can only be use when the state is unable to look in to the matter, it can not overrule a states power in anyway if that state is able and willing to acted.

The UCMJ is very much enforced in the US on it's armed forces. Not agreeing with the findings or the way an investigation is carried out by a state is not the reason for the International criminal court.

 

[bigfatron]

So now the video the US military first stated didn't exist and then said was classified has come to public view - by being leaked to a newspaper.

It seems to show a badly disjointed process:
- the pilots are advised there are no friendly forces in the area when there are
- the pilots identify the allied recognition markings (orange panels on the vehicles) but decide to ignore them
- immediately after attacking they get a heads up from base that there IS an allied convoy in the area
- their remorse is unfeigned and obvious and they break off.

Serious questions emerge that are valid for a coroner's enquiry:
- why was the initial intel totally wrong?
- why did the pilots spot and then ignore the allied recognition markings?
- what kind of review process has already taken place?

I can't post the link, my firm has now blocked it - search on 'The Sun newspaper' in google.

Finally, the Pentagon's response? To threaten to sue whoever leaked the video. Yeah right, you think we are going to extradite a UK military officer to the US to be sued by the Pentagon, when the US military holds our legal system in complete contempt? It would be the most abject surrender ever, even for our abject administration (so, on reflection, it will probably happen).

Our government may be a bunch of lick-arses but the anger in UK military circles about this is immense, accordig to those who can read traffic on the military bulletin boards - perhaps the Pentagon might like to start treating its allies like allies, instead of tributary states?

BFR

 

[GinandTonic]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,250418,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6333853.stm

http://www.thesun.co.uk/section/0,,2,00.html

Sun discription in brief

Spoiler :

Circling at an altitude of 12,000ft, the A-10s spotted Iraqi vehicles 800 yards north, and the British patrol less than three miles west. ERROR ONE came when they asked the Forward Air Controller, call sign Manila Hotel, if friendly forces were around the Iraqi vehicles — not to the west. In ERROR TWO neither pilot gave the precise grid references for the Household Cavalry patrol to double check its identity.

ERROR THREE saw them convince themselves the identification panels were really orange rocket launchers.

In ERROR FOUR POPOV36 decides to attack, saying he is “rolling in” — without permission from the Forward Air Controller. POPOV35 asks for artillery to fire a marker round into the target area to clear up confusion.

Hero ... Chris Finney

But ERROR FIVE came when POPOV36 attacked without waiting for it. In ERROR SIX POPOV36 strafes the column for a second time but still doubts its identity.

Only the bravery of Trooper Chris Finney, 18, stopped further attacks. He jumped on a burning vehicle to radio in a Mayday report and call off the strike, dragged a badly wounded comrade from the inferno, then went back in for L/Cpl Hull. He was injured and won the George Cross.

POPOV36 is known to be a lieutenant colonel, and POPOV35 a major, but their identities have never been released. Neither has the result of a US Air Force inquiry.

Last night a senior US military source told The Sun: “This tape needs to get out. The pilots need to be brought to account.”

Transcript in full.

Spoiler :

THIS is the full transcript of the cockpit video from call sign POPOV36 during the disastrous friendly fire attack on the Household Cavalry patrol.

Lasting just over 15 minutes, it begins just before the A-10 Thunderbolt pilot spots the four British vehicles.

The local time is 4.36pm, or 1.36pm Greenwich Mean Time which is what the military use.

The killer pilot’s wingman, hunting targets with him in a second A-10, had the call sign POPOV35.

Click to see the shocking video


The other main call signs on the radio net are MANILA HOTEL, MANILA34, and LIGHTNING34 — three US Marine Corps Forward Air Controllers on the ground attached to British units.

Later on, other call signs come on the net to relay emergency ceasefire messages.

They are SKY CHIEF, an American AWAC jet controlling the overall air battle and COSTA58, a British pilot nearby.

The time code in hours, minutes and seconds is from the digital clock on the pilot’s display.

Transcript starts:

1336.30 MANILA HOTEL:

POPOV from MANILA HOTEL. Can you confirm you engaged that tube and those vehicles?

1336.36 POPOV35:

Affirm Sir. Looks like I’ve got multiple vehicles in reverts at about 800 metres to the north of your arty rounds. Can you switch fire, and shift fire, and get some arty rounds on those?

1336.47 MANILA HOTEL:

Roger, I understand that those are the impacts you observed earlier on my timing?

1336.51 POPOV35:

Affirmative.

1336.52 MANILA HOTEL:

Roger, standby. Let me make sure they’re not on another mission.

1336.57 POPOV36:

Hey, I got a four ship. Looks like we got orange panels on them though. Do we have any friendlies up in this area?

1337.03 MANILA HOTEL:

I understand that was north 800 metres.

1337.12 MANILA HOTEL:

POPOV, understand that was north 800 metres?

1337.16 POPOV35:

Confirm, north 800 metres. Confirm there are no friendlies this far north on the ground.

1337.21 MANILA HOTEL:

That is an affirm. You are well clear of friendlies.

1337.25 POPOV35:

Copy. I see multiple riveted vehicles. Some look like flatbed trucks and others are green vehicles. Can’t quite make out the type. Look like may be ZIL157s (Russian made trucks used by Iraqi army).

1337.36 MANILA HOTEL:

Roger. That matches our Intel up there. And understand you also have the other fixed wing up this push? For terminal control, if you can.

1337.44 POPOV35:

I’d love to. I didn’t talk to him yet.

1337.46 MANILA HOTEL:

Roger, I believe CASPER is up this push too. Two Super Tomcats.

1337.54 POPOV35:

Hey dude.

1337.56 POPOV36:

I got a four ship of vehicles that are evenly spaced along a road going north.

1338.04 POPOV36:

Look down at your right, 2 o’clock, at 10 o’clock low, there is a, left 10 o’clock low, look down there north along that canal, right there. Coming up just south of the village.

1338.21 POPOV35:

Evenly spaced? Where we strafed?

1338.23 POPOV36:

No. No. Further east, further west, right now. And there’s four or five of them right now heading up there.

1338.29 POPOV35:

No, I don’t have you visual.

1338.30 POPOV36:

I’m back at your 6 – no factor.

1338.31 POPOV35:

OK, now where’s this canal?

1338.35 POPOV35:

Don’t hit those F18s that are out there.

1338.38 POPOV36:

OK. Right underneath you. Right now, there’s a canal that runs north/south. There’s a small village, and there are vehicles that are spaced evenly there.

1338.49 POPOV36:

They look like they have orange panels on though.

1338.51 POPOV35:

He told me, he told me there’s nobody north of here.

1338.52 POPOV36:

I know. There, right on the river.

1338.53 POPOV35:

I see vehicles though, might be our original dudes.

1339.09 POPOV36:

They’ve got something orange on top of them.

1339.10 POPOV35:

POPOV for MANILA 3, is MANILA 34 in this area?

1339.14 MANILA HOTEL:

Say again?

1339.15 POPOV35:

MANILA HOTEL, is MANILA 34 in this area?

1339.19 MANILA HOTEL:

Negative. Understand they are well clear of that now.

1339.23 POPOV35:

OK, copy. Like I said, multiple riveted vehicles. They look like flatbed trucks. Are those your targets?

1339.30 MANILA HOTEL:

That’s affirm.

1339.31 POPOV35:

OK.

1339.34 POPOV36:

Let me ask you one question.

1339.35 POPOV35:

What’s that?

1339.45 POPO36:

(to MANILA HOTEL) Hey, tell me what type of rocket launchers you got up here?

1339.50 POPOV36:

I think they’re rocket launchers.

1339.52 MANILA HOTEL:

. . . (garbled) You were stepped on, say again.

1339.54 POPOV35:

MANILA HOTEL, fire your arty (artillery) up that 800 metres north, and see how we do.

1340.01 MANILA HOTEL:

Roger, standby for shot. They are getting adjustments to the guns now.

1340.34 POPOV35:

Copy.

1340.09 POPOV36:

Roll up your right wing and look right underneath you.

1340.12 POPOV35:

(angry) I know what you’re talking about.

1340.13 POPOV36:

OK, well they got orange rockets on them.

1340.17 POPOV35:

Orange rockets?

1340.17 POPOV36:

Yeah, I think so.

1340.18 POPOV35:

Let me look.

1340.26 POPOV35:

We need to think about getting home.

1340.29 POPOV36:

3.6 is what it says (a fuel measurement).

1340.31 POPOV35:

Yeah, I know. I’m talking time wise.

1340.35 POPOV36:

I think killing these damn rocket launchers, it would be great.

(The tape then becomes garbled)

1340.52 MANILA HOTEL:

Yeah, POPOV36, MANILA HOTEL. I’ve got other aircraft up this push. Not sure they’re coming to me. Someone else might be working this freak.

1341.00 POPOV35:

Yeah, MANILA34 is working them, break, break.

1340.12 POPOV36:

Yeah, I see that, you see I’m going to roll down.

1340.15 MANILA 34:

Break, be advised MANILA34 is not working the F18s unless they are trying to check in with me, over.

1341.21 POPOV35:

Copy.

1341.24 POPOV36:

OK, do you see the orange things on top of them?

1341.32 MANILA HOTEL:

POPOV 36 from MANILA HOTEL. Are you able to switch to Crimson?

1341.37 POPOV36:

POPOV 36 is rolling in.

1341.40 MANILA HOTEL:

Tell you what.

1341.41 POPOV35:

I’m coming off west. You roll in. It looks like they are exactly what we’re talking about.

1341.49 POPOV36:

We got visual.

1341.50 POPOV36:

OK. I want to get that first one before he gets into town then.

1341.53 POPOV35:

Get him – get him.

1341.55 POPOV36:

All right, we got rocket launchers, it looks like. Number 2 is rolling in from the south to the north, and 2’s in.

1342.04 POPOV35:

Get it.

POPOV36, “rolls in” for an attack and turns his A-10 into a vertical dive to strafe the British column, destroying two Scimitar armoured vehicles and killing L/Cpl of Horse Matty Hull.

1342.09 - GUNFIRE -

1342.18 POPOV35:

I’m off your west.

1342.22 POPOV35:

Good hits.

1342.29 POPOV36:

Got a visual.

1342.30 POPOV35:

I got a visual. You’re at your high 10.

1342.31 POPOV36:

Gotcha.

1342.30 POPOV36:

That’s what you think they are, right?

1342.39 POPOV35:

It looks like it to me, and I got my goggles on them now.

1342.59 POPOV35:

OK, I’m looking at getting down low at this.

1343.13 MANILA HOTEL:

POPOV 36 from MANILA HOTEL, guns . . .

1343.17 MANILA HOTEL:

To engage those targets in the revetts (slopes).

1343.24 POPOV36:

It looks like he is hauling ass. Ha ha. Is that what you think they are?

1343.34 POPOV36:

1–2

1343.35 POPOV35:

It doesn’t look friendly.

1343.38 POPOV36:

OK, I’m in again from the south.

1343.40 POPOV35:

Ok.

1343.47 - GUNFIRE -

1343.54 LIGHTNING 34:

POPOV 34, LIGHTNING 34.

1344.09 POPOV35:

POPOV 35, LIGHTNING 34 GO.

1344.12 LIGHTNING 34:

Roger, POPOV. Be advised that in the 3122 and 3222 group box you have friendly armour in the area. Yellow, small armoured tanks. Just be advised.

1344.16 POPOV35:

Ahh s***.

1344.19 P0POV35:

Got a — got a smoke.

1344.21 LIGHTNING 34:

Hey, POPOV34, abort your mission. You got a, looks we might have a blue on blue situation.

1344.25 POPOV35:

F***. God bless it.

1344.29 POPOV35:

POPOV 34.

1344.35 POPOV35:

F***, f***, f***.

1344.36 MANILA 34:

POPOV34, this is MANILA 34. Did you copy my last, over?

1344.39 POPOV35:

I did.

1344.47 POPOV35:

Confirm those are friendlies on that side of the canal.

1344.51 POPOV35:

S***.

1344.58 MANILA 34:

Standby POPOV.

1345.04 POPOV36:

God dammit.

1344.14 MANILA HOTEL:

Hey POPOV 36, from MANILA HOTEL.

1344.25 MANILA 34:

OK POPOV. Just west of the 3-4 easting. On the berm up there, the 3422 area is where we have our friendlies, over.

1344.39 POPOV35:

All right, POPOV 35 has smoke. Let me know how those friendlies are right now, please.

1344.45 MANILA 34:

Roger, standby.

1344.49 POPOV35:

Gotta go home dude.

1344.50 POPOV36:

Yeah, I know. We’re f***ed.

1345.54 POPOV35:

S***.

1346.01 POPOV36:

As you cross the circle, you are 3 o’clock low.

1346.03 POPOV35:

Roger.

1346.12 POPOV35:

POPOV 35 is Bingo. Let us know what’s happening.

13446.15 MANILA HOTEL:

Roger. We are getting that information for you right now. Standby.

1346.20 POPOV36:

F***.

1346.47 MANILA 34:

POPOV, this is MANILA 34 over.

1346.51 POPOV35:

Go.

1346.55 MANILA 34:

POPOV 4, MANILA 34 over.

1347.01 POPOV35:

Go.

1347.02 MANILA 34:

We are getting an initial brief that there was one killed and one wounded, over.

1347.09 POPOV35:

Copy. RTB (return to base).

1347.18 POPOV35:

I’m going to be sick.

1347.24 POPOV36:

Ah f***.

1347.48 POPOV35:

Did you hear?

1347.51 POPOV36:

Yeah, this sucks.

1347.52 POPOV35:

We’re in jail dude.

1347.59 POPOV36:

Aaaahhhh.

1348.12 SKY CHIEF:

MANILA this is SKY CHIEF over.

1348.18 MANILA34:

This is MANILA 34, send SKY CHIEF.

1348.22 COSTA58:

SKY CHIEF, SKY CHIEF. COSTA 58.

1348.25 MANILA HOTEL:

SKY CHIEF, this is MANILA HOTEL.

1348.30 COSTA58:

SKY CHIEF, SKY CHIEF. COSTA 58.

1348.41 SKY CHIEF:

Relaying for TWINACT, the A-10s are running against friendlies.

1348.47 COSTA58:

POPOV 35, this is COSTA58. Relaying message for TWINACT. Abort, abort.

1348.54 SKY CHIEF:

MANILA how copy A-10s are running against friendlies. Abort. Over.

1349.07 COSTA58:

From TWINACT, abort, abort.

1349. 11 POPOV35:

POPOV 35 aborting.

1349.14 COSTA58:

We will relay that back to TWINACT.

1349.18 POPOV36:

F***. God f***ing s***.

1350.21 POPOV36:

Dammit. F***ing damn it.

1351.17 P0POV36:

God dammit. F*** me dead (weeping).

1351.25 POPOV35:

You with me?

1351.27 POPOV36:

Yeah.

1351.30 POPOV35:

They did say there were no friendlies.

1351.33 POPOV36:

Yeah, I know that thing with the orange panels is going to screw us. They look like orange rockets on top.

1351.48 POPOV35:

Your tape still on?

1351.49 POPOV36:

Yeah.

1351.54 POPOV35:

Mine is end of tape.

Transcript ends.

Having seen the video the only reason to refuse to publish it is to avoid adverse publicity. There is no security reason to withold this from his widow.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Reading that transcript it's obvious the pilots did not know they were shooting at friendlies. Exactly what they could be charged with in any criminal court is beyond me as blue on blue incidents are common.

What about the bad intel from the control who assured them no friendlies were in the area?

 

[bigfatron]

Reading that transcript it's obvious the pilots did not know they were shooting at friendlies. Exactly what they could be charged with in any criminal court is beyond me as blue on blue incidents are common.

What about the bad intel from the control who assured them no friendlies were in the area?

On the face of it I agree - the intel appears to be badly at fault, and the confirmation that no friendlies were in the area certainly encouraged the error. Without knowing how that faulty intel came about it is hard to know where this process went wrong.

I accept that mistakes happen in war, it's unavoidable - I think we all do. But why does the US military insist in treating the UK legal system with such contempt?

These airmen and controllers should be here, in the UK, giving evidence as our law requires, not being hidden behind a false screen of 'national security'.

BFR

 

[Dr Alimentado]

For those like me that have issues with playing the video from fox/sun websites; the full cockpit video on youtube;

Part One (8m24s): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HQNC4t1_4k

Part Two (6m09s): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as7SFotpP-Q

I think there is probably plenty of blame to go around, the FAC (Manilla Hotel) gave them incorrect information that there were no friendlies in the area although we have no idea if his info was wrong or the error was his own.

The orange panels (indicating they are friendlies) are spotted early and repeatedly, and its disturbing how quickly they forget/discount this and (once they are told there are no friendlies around) and re-identify the orange panels as orange rockets. I dont really understand how this happens, I mean if its really that difficult to tell a sheet of orange polythene from a rocket from a cockpit then its very worrying that pilots have such autonomy for aquiring their own targets... I wonder how many civilian convoys have also been mis-identified... of course those will never have a coroner to put the light on them.
But anyway if they see orange panels then like the commentator says surely they should get a really positive ID before they ignore that?

So maybe the pilots have some blame if they didnt follow the correct procedures for getting a positive ID but I suspect that the real blame is systemic - a trigger-happy mode of operation that is happy to accept collateral damages but is shown up by occaisonal friendly-fire incidents. As this seems to be by design (a trigger happy environment, I'm sure they try to prevent friendly-fire within these parameters) no doubt the US administration/military command learns very little from these incidents. Other than how to cover them up better I guess.

 

[GinandTonic]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6334769.stm

US 'can release cockpit footage'

The US believes it can make the cockpit video of the "friendly fire" death of a British soldier available to an inquest, Downing Street has said.

Excellent, we have gone from "there is no tape" to "we dont have the tape" to "we cannot allow the tape to be shown because it would threaten national security" to "sure you can show it".

The first three statements were all outright lies, and even the last is dishonest. Now the information is in the public domain the coroner is allowed to show it. The Defence Dpt graciously permits it to be shown despite that no longer being within its gift. They also seem to have withdrawn their initial threat of bringing a prosicution against The Sun when they realised that the paper is within its rights on the grounds of the public interest - with the coroner having said that the day before. Strikes me The Sun has probably had this footage for a while and knew it was legally clear as soon as the judge said that justice could not be served without it.

I dont think people want criminal charges, but they want justice to be done and be seen to be done. A bunch of people need to loose their jobs over this.

Why did they ask the air controler if there were friendlies in the wrong place?

Why did they not give grid referances?

Why did they ignore the ID pannels? Or at least not exercise caution if they were unsure?

Why did Popov36 not wait for the arty marker to clear-up the confusion over the lack of grid referances and asking if the wrong area was clear of friendlies?

Why did Popov36 attack without permission from the air controler?

While it doesnt seem as if any good would be served by bringing them to trial any half decent lawer could present a case to answer for recklesness or negligence. Especially against popov36.

 

[nonconformist]

This is an absolute disgrace, and is as good as murder.

It's a well known fact that the air-force deliberately chooses its less intelligent pilots as Warthog pilots, but this negligence is astounding, on so many levels.

Firstly, the pilots didn't know that there were friendlies in the area.

Secondly, they noticed, but didn't act upon the orange panels, nor the Union Jacks painted on the vehicles.

After their first strafing run, British troops radioed that there was an FF situation going on, but it wan' transmitted until afer the third run.

British troops fired off a multitude of crimson flares to identify themselves as friendlies, which were ignored.

None of the pilots involved were court-martialled, or even faced disciplinary hearings.
If the US insists on being so morally bankrupt as to give its troops carte-blanche, without the right of justice to its Allies, I think we'd be bloody well justified to leave right now, and let the do the job on their own.

The US has a pretty abysmal record regarding Friendly Fire incidents;
I believe that during the First Gulf War, an astounding 17% of all casualties were blue-on-blue incidents, and in the frst week of the war, more Coalition troops were killed by US servicemen than by Iraqi forces.

Reading the paper this afternoon, there were a couple of choice quotes I found.
These were recorded on Army Internet message boards:

"I have met a former US pilot, and he would never have made the rank of Private in the TA here. I wouldn't have trusted him to drive a bus".

"The American military have the best technology, and worst personnel. The British Army have the worst technology, but best personnel. The Americans have one mentality-if it moves, shoot it".

 

[woody60707]

I am Sure the US looked in to this, and i am sure the UK did as well. (what was the reason the DOD gave the MOD the tapes in the 1st place.) There are many things that go in to this. What zones were clear for engagement and for what element? What was the ROE? where they weapons tight or weapons free?

I know no one is going to want to ask this being this may be misconstrued as blaming the people who were killed, but where they where they should of been? Maybe they reported the wrong grid to command?

Now my guess (thats all it is) is that the A-10s were flying on station waiting for CAS calls. The FAC gives them a mission (what is i am guessing is to engage (idk what) 800m north of a WP round) Now this is where we really need to know some back round info. If the A-10's were weapons free or in a weapons free zone (weapons free means engage anyone not positively ID as friendly) The the pilots made no error.

If the A-10s were in weapons tight (what is far far more likely) Then they made an error by not IDing the targets positively hostile before firing.

There is also other gray areas that would need looking in to. Really, until you know the basic of the zone they were in, what engagement order were given and so on, you really can't say. But the DOD and MOD has that info and they can say.

 

[GinandTonic]

I know no one is going to want to ask this being this may be misconstrued as blaming the people who were killed, but where they where they should of been? Maybe they reported the wrong grid to command?

Yes. They were aproved as a probing mission ahead of the body of the advance. The pilots asked if friendlies were in the wrong place. Ther command knew the household cav were their, but the A10 asked if they were somewhere else.

In other news it seems the Pilots have faced no censure, and one of them is now training other pilots. Grotesque. This has the potential to be a really major diplomatic incident. It is the main story in every paper tomorrow and lead story on the TV and radio. Blair simply doesnt have the authority to resist massive public pressure. If one of these guys doesnt get a dishonerable discharge Blair will have to get the UK force out of Iraq. The left and centre are against it, and unless this is resolved the right is against it too.

 

[malclave]

It's a well known fact that the air-force deliberately chooses its less intelligent pilots as Warthog pilots

evidence for this?

 

[woody60707]

Yes. They were aproved as a probing mission ahead of the body of the advance. The pilots asked if friendlies were in the wrong place. Ther command knew the household cav were their, but the A10 asked if they were somewhere else.

I didn't see where the A10 asked for the wrong spot. The FAC made it clear there weren't any friendlies anywhere close to him and the FAC knew where the A-10s where at. Where did you read that there was a correct pos report on the scout column? Just because their command told them to move up didn't mean they weren't sent in to a free fire zone.

In other news it seems the Pilots have faced no censure, and one of them is now training other pilots. Grotesque. This has the potential to be a really major diplomatic incident. It is the main story in every paper tomorrow and lead story on the TV and radio. Blair simply doesnt have the authority to resist massive public pressure. If one of these guys doesnt get a dishonerable discharge Blair will have to get the UK force out of Iraq. The left and centre are against it, and unless this is resolved the right is against it too.

Why are you so sure the A-10s did something wrong? The DOD had to do an investigation on this matter by MCO (some number). And I would bet the farm that the MOD did a investigation in to this matter as well (reason why they were given the tape). If anything, you should be pushing for the MOD to release their findings to even see if they found error with the A-10s. There could be reasons (i listed a few in the other thread) as to why the A-10 would be found not at fault.

 

[Bugfatty300]

This is an absolute disgrace, and is as good as murder.

It's a well known fact that the air-force deliberately chooses its less intelligent pilots as Warthog pilots, but this negligence is astounding, on so many levels.

Firstly, the pilots didn't know that there were friendlies in the area.

Secondly, they noticed, but didn't act upon the orange panels, nor the Union Jacks painted on the vehicles.

After their first strafing run, British troops radioed that there was an FF situation going on, but it wan' transmitted until afer the third run.

British troops fired off a multitude of crimson flares to identify themselves as friendlies, which were ignored.

None of the pilots involved were court-martialled, or even faced disciplinary hearings.
If the US insists on being so morally bankrupt as to give its troops carte-blanche, without the right of justice to its Allies, I think we'd be bloody well justified to leave right now, and let the do the job on their own.

The US has a pretty abysmal record regarding Friendly Fire incidents;
I believe that during the First Gulf War, an astounding 17% of all casualties were blue-on-blue incidents, and in the frst week of the war, more Coalition troops were killed by US servicemen than by Iraqi forces.

Reading the paper this afternoon, there were a couple of choice quotes I found.
These were recorded on Army Internet message boards:

"I have met a former US pilot, and he would never have made the rank of Private in the TA here. I wouldn't have trusted him to drive a bus".

"The American military have the best technology, and worst personnel. The British Army have the worst technology, but best personnel. The Americans have one mentality-if it moves, shoot it".

Why are you quoting internet forums to prove your point? Don't you have first hand experience with US personel if so then you should be able to make an informed comment with out quoting anonymous internet rhetoric.

If not, please keep the bashing to yourself.

 

[bigfatron]

Why are you quoting internet forums to prove your point? Don't you have first hand experience with US personel if so then you should be able to make an informed comment with out quoting anonymous internet rhetoric.

If not, please keep the bashing to yourself.

Bugfatty, I think Nonconformist's concerns the same as mine here.

It may not be apparent in the US, but the people most angry about the way this incident has been handled are the UK military personnel themselves - not some bunch of leftist or liberal whingers (like me!) but the officers, soldiers and airmen on the ground in Iraq.

There is a strong current that is obvious over here that ordinary members of the UK military view US personnel as undertrained, over-aggressive and not properly supervised. Obviously these are generalisations both in terms of the view and who holds it, but it is very noticeable.

The general view seems to be that the US military treats UK military personnel with contempt, and that the UK Ministry of Defence is spineless in allowing it.

Not a view, I would suggest, that you want your closest allies' military officers to hold?

Of course, the Ministry of Defence comes out of this looking like fools, but that is nothing new lately...

 

[GinandTonic]

How about a retired US air force colonel who has taught military strategy at the Air War College?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2007386,00.html

The US air force has a long history of friendly fire incidents, in part because it is the world's overwhelmingly dominant air power, but concerns have been raised over the training of reservist pilots, amphetamine use and the reliance on outdated technology to distinguish friend from foe.
The two US pilots involved in the strafing of the Household Cavalry regiment near Basra in 2003, whose voices were recorded on the cockpit videotape, were both reservists with the Idaho Air National Guard. In another friendly fire incident, which killed four Canadians in Afghanistan the previous year, the two pilots were also National Guard part-timers.

Sam Gardiner, a retired US air force colonel who has taught military strategy at the Air War College, said National Guard pilots do not have as much experience as regular air force pilots in combined exercises with Nato allies. As a result they are not used to seeing British vehicles below them.

"These guys are trained well enough to fly the airplanes and do the missions, but when it comes to complex multinational missions, they have not had that Nato experience," Mr Gardiner said.

 

[woody60707]

How about a retired US air force colonel who has taught military strategy at the Air War College?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2007386,00.html

Your right, the national guard does lack experience that others in the air force would have. but as a note to to another commit made, this has nothing to do with IQ or flying A-10's.

But i still haven't seen what shown that the A-10s made the critical error. I know what the US findings are, what are the UK MOD findings?

 

[bigfatron]

But i still haven't seen what shown that the A-10s made the critical error. I know what the US findings are, what are the UK MOD findings?

As regards the critical error - these guys ID'd the vehicles as carrying allied markings, but disregarded that on the basis of Control confirming no friendlies in the area - should they not have told Control they had apparent friendlies?

Asking 'We seem to have friendlies, are you sure there are none in this area?" is a very different question from 'Please confirm no friendlies in this area' - one rings alarm bells, the other completely fails to do so.

I think it smacks of inexperience and lack of training rather than bad intent, but remember our soldiers died and were maimed as a result of that error.

I'd also like to know why the intel was so wrong.

Finally, why did the pilots disregard the signal flares put up after the first strafe?

In fact, I'd like to know what were the US findings. All we know publically is that no action has been taken by the US military against anyone involved - not why they reached that decision or where the process fell down.

Without that information there is bound to be strong suspicion of a whitewash.

 

[nonconformist]

evidence for this?

It's anecdotal, I'll concede.

The (alleged) reasonign is thus:
Tank-busting is pretty dangerous, especially using the A10 Warthog "Devil's Cross".
It's a cumbersome aircraft, hich is slow and rather unwieldly and has unorthodox wepons arrangements-primarily its autocannon requiring steep dives to use. It's today's equivilent of the Stuka dive-bomber.

And like the Stuka, it's very dangerous. Not only does the speed of the aircraft, and the head-on angle mean that it's fairly simple to shoot down with large and medium calibre fire, but the near-verticle dive-angle means that more than one pilot has failed to pull up in time, and plouged straight into the ground, or indeed the tank he was targetting.

As a result of this, as well as the nature of the work being fairly limited in its tactical deployal, the brass prefers to have less able pilots, while putting experienced, and top pilots in fighters, fighter-bombers and AWACS type jobs, maybe because of the harder, strategic, and wider-ranging nature of the work, and possibly because presumably the more intellectually challenged pilots will be more gung-ho while piloting a jet aircraft straight down towards the ground at low altitudes.

Why are you quoting internet forums to prove your point? Don't you have first hand experience with US personel if so then you should be able to make an informed comment with out quoting anonymous internet rhetoric.

If not, please keep the bashing to yourself.

I am quoting British servicemen-this is from an Official MoD web-board, and as such, it can be construed as a fairly typical British mindset, along with the rumours in British barracks that US pilots are award a bouty for each target confirmed dead, and that pilots regularly take amphetamines to increase their spotting prowess and reaction times.