Sengir01 - Spying with a vengeance

[PaulisKhan]

Nice strong capital you've got yourselves there. Looks like the move payed off.

Hook up the gold when wheel comes in and you can work an additional 2 plains hills at happy cap and food neutrality for 20 hpt and 18 gpt, that's superb for so early in the game!
Gotta love those cows =)

Just as well too, judging by your newly discovered neighbourhood clown.

-edit- I would strongly recommend placing the gems city (white on the dotmap) 2N of its current location. Having the irrigated rice to grow on will significantly improve that cities output. You lose 1 dye, but more than compensate it with the additional 4 grassland river cottage tiles and the +5 food rice.

 

[Whosit]

Hmm, the idea to move Gems Town is worth considering. You do have a point that a few riverside towns will eventually make up for the loss of a dye. And the rice will let it grow faster. We can probably squeeze in a filler town or two, as well. Maybe one adjacent to the river and lakes north of Berlin?

OK, I can probably squeeze in a set tomorrow morning, so if anyone has ideas, let me know. I had an idea, but after looking at the save, it may not work out so well. I thought we might be able to Axe-rush Ragnar, but he has a source of copper, too. On the other hand, hooking up the gold and mining the plains hills should let us crank out an axeman every 3 turns, so we might be able to outproduce the Vikings. Probably too risky, though.

As far as settling goes . . . . Perhaps the stone location first, but the gems site a close second. We'll need iron working to get through the jungle, of course, but if we can get that place up and running early, we'll probably get a huge financial lead.

Oh, yeah, and the GW will pop our borders a bit earlier than the 21 turns indicated, so the copper should be available sooner than that. The workers are in the forest, but I see no reason to chop at this point.

 

[Meiz]

I'd settle gold city after stone, just because it's close to home, it brings quick additional commerce and most importantly, we don't need IW to make it work. And no suprise that I still vote for moving the gems town to get the rice

We should be able to rush Ragnar if the team want's to commit to that, but don't forget that we would also lose our direct neighbor. Normally this sounds like a good thing, but with our variant, we want someone close to steal techs from . In my experience, Ragnar doesn't do so bad in teching (maybe something to do with his financial trait? ).

So yeah, I'd rather focus on expanding until we hit Alphabet.

 

[nocho]

Looks good! Can't look at the save but if we can get the gem town with a food source at the expense of one measely dye, I'd do that any time!

I guess after the GW it's REX time, we should at least get those 3 cities founded asap. Don't forget to build some units though for escort service . I guess right now we can just build warriors but with copper online we can build a bunch of axes for defence. With Monty to our NW we'll probably get dowed sooner than later.

I wouldn't do an axe rush. It looks like we have decent enough land to settle anyway. And if we'd confiscate Ragnar's land that soon, the game may turn out too easy.

Oh, and I'd chop a forest or 2 to finish GW and put hammers in settlers. Maybe not chop everything, but I don't think we really need to spare all forest for any wonder, as we won't be building mids and Berlin has good enough production anyway to build later things like GL for instance (if we wish).

Probably really waaaay too early to discuss, but I'll mention it anyway for your consideration: if we get gem town I'd consider a palace move there. With bureaucracy it will be getting out really tons of commerce converted into spy points. Berlin has awesome production of course, but apart from the gold little commerce. Probably we can't have many cottages around Berlin as we'll need farms to grow and work more hills. It will be the main production center of course and a good Heroic Epic city. I don't know though about the feasibility, like whether gem city has enough production to build a palace in something faster than snail pace.

 

[PaulisKhan]

Probably really waaaay too early to discuss, but I'll mention it anyway for your consideration: if we get gem town I'd consider a palace move there. With bureaucracy it will be getting out really tons of commerce converted into spy points. Berlin has awesome production of course, but apart from the gold little commerce. Probably we can't have many cottages around Berlin as we'll need farms to grow and work more hills. It will be the main production center of course and a good Heroic Epic city. I don't know though about the feasibility, like whether gem city has enough production to build a palace in something faster than snail pace.

I often do something similar to this in my HoF games, I find that heavy use of the whip can get you through most of the troubles (library, palace, university, oxford) it does mean farming most of the grassland first though to maximise growth, once you have all the infra in place then you can go about cottaging everything up.

 

[Whosit]

OK, so Ragnar gets to live in peace (for now), settle Stone Town, (modified) Gems Town, annnnd Sheep-Gold was next most important?

Guess I'll chop the one forest, and that Palace move makes sense, once we get to Bureaucracy. Will play in a bit.

 

[nocho]

That's about it, although Meiz wanted gold/sheep before gem town... For me either way is fine, I suppose gem place is in no immediate danger of being settled by monty or hammu. I'd also get some fog busting warriors out by the way!

Tech path I suppose wheel - agri - pottery? Did we decide whether we can tech IW finally by the way? That probably won't be an issue yet in your set, but maybe in mine after that...

 

[Norvin_Green]

The GW will finish in 5 turns so chopping it isn't go to speed it along. We might want to chop a second worker to assist in hooking up the gold and road towards the copper. With the extra from the GW our # of turns until we can access copper will be less than the 21 in my Berlin screenshot. We might want to also slot in a barracks soon as Berlin is going to pump out tons of units from the look of it. I'll make the argument again for settling the cyan/gold city next as the extra commerce is going to help a lot.

 

[Meiz]

I'm quite certain that we will miss the stone site to Ragnar if we don't get that with the next settler. We have a GW, so there's no problem to go for gold site right after stone city is built.

We agreed with sturic's tech list so we are still allowed to research:

The Wheel
Agriculture
Pottery
Iron Working (This was not so clear, so Sengir could confirm it)
Fishing
Writing
Alphabet

 

[nocho]

Well, the chops were not specifically meant for the GW, more for a settler and/or worker as you mention. Seeing as it is that the wheel takes 8 turns the worker right now can chop 2 forests as there's nothing else really useful he can do anyway. Well, build another mine but that's not needed until gold is roaded and we hit size 6. So I'd speed up settler/worker (prefer settler first) build with some chops.

I'd go for the stone site first, reason being to block off Ragnar. While commerce is nice, we're not in immediate dire need of it, especially as there's not that many techs left before we have to switch off research. So I'd prioritize for the moment the land grab over the extra commerce.

We'll also have to discuss what to do with the first GSpy. I'd lean on infiltration to start stealing early. With the 2nd and 3rd I'd settle and build SY.

 

[Meiz]

We'll also have to discuss what to do with the first GSpy. I'd lean on infiltration to start stealing early. With the 2nd and 3rd I'd settle and build SY.

That's the way I've always done it and it works . Infiltration basically gives us all the techs at least until Currency, CoL and even Civil Service, while settled Gspy will give profit only so much later.

 

[Whosit]

Personally, I figure Iron Working counts as a "worker tech" since we need it to cut jungles. But I'll let Sengir confirm that. Guess I'll tech Agri and Pottery in my set, in any case.

Man, all this conversation going on. Great. Anyway, I think my rough build order will be: Settler < Worker < Barracks < 2-3 Axemen < Settler < Worker < etc.

Doubt I'd get that far in 20+ turns, anyway.

As fer the Grt. Spy? Hmm, I'm actually leaning towards embedding the first one. My reasoning (perhaps flawed) is that we won't know 'till we hit Alphabet which Civ has the most techs. Meiz is right that Ragnar's financial trait gives him an edge, but I still think it's a slight gamble at this point. Mine may be a more conservative plan, but I'd save the Infiltration until we have a better idea on who the tech leader is.

Edit: Though it looks like the consensus is to Infiltration. I'm sure it's the best move, despite my logic.

 

[Sengir]

We don't need to know who has the most techs, as we want a target relatively close by from whom we can steal on the cheap, so the infiltration target is decided by location more then by amount of techs.

I agree with Meiz that the stone site should be next, otherwise we can forget about it altogether probably. Gems town should get the rice indeed. The faster growth will more then make up for losing a dye.

Techpath: Wheel > Agri > Pottery > IW (allowed) > Writing > Alphabet
This means we don't research Fishing, which we won't need for some time to come and can steal whenever we want/need.

 

[Whosit]

If you will pardon a brief intellectual diversion . . . .

I was considering Berlin, and all those cows, and amusedly thought to myself "Berlin beef must be the best in the world." But, I had another thought. Perhaps our Germans might develop attitudes towards the cow more like that of the real-life Indians. In India, as I'm sure you all know, eating beef is taboo, but the cow is used in many ways, from dairy products, as a draft animal, and the manure is used for fertilizer, fuel, and for other things as well. This area is not my specialty, I will admit, but I understand this attitude towards the cow arose from the unique position in which the Indians found themselves: Basically, due to several factors, the ancient Indians found that they were worse-off eating their cows than they were for preserving them.

Looking at our Berlin, our people have many sources of Cattle, but no other exceptional sources of food. Of course, we must presume that these Germans can gather/plant some amount of wild plants or crops, but these foods are not in abundance as would be indicated by a wheat or rice resource (or even corn). Therefore, I can imagine our fictional Germans as using their cattle for labor as well as their manure to fertilize the otherwise meager soil. And there is not a great abundance of forests (and we'll be chopping most of it down soon, I think), so that our people will not have a great source of fuel or raw materials, also leading to a greater dependence on cattle in some fashion.

So, all this considered, I would like to put forth the assertion that our fictional Germans would soon develop a taboo against eating beef and would use cattle in a manner similar to the Indians, even after we acquire additional resources since such deep-set traditions would be unlikely to break. If we were in a position to chase Hinduism, that'd be all the more appropriate, but due to our Variant, I don't think we'll be founding any religions (except Taoism? Did we make an exception for Code of Laws in order to get Court Houses?). In any case, I submit this for your consideration.

I admit that this is kind of useless thinking, but sometimes I enjoy trying to imagine my Civ people as more than mere numbers and statistics. It would be nice if our culture could be measured in some way besides a mere number, but that wouldn't make for an efficient game. Speaking of, I'll get back to the actual game; hopefully at least one of you finds this diversion interesting.

 

[nocho]

An amusing diversion!

The feasibility of becoming hindus is another thing, it seems none of our neighbours have any religions yet, and hinduism was FIADL. It may be a very distant land indeed!

Indeed it seems we won't be founding any religions, unless it would be with a philo-bulb. Whether we'll adopt any religions will probably all depend on our neighbours and whom we want to befriend or at least not upset by adopting any.

In the meanwhile, let the Germans eat their Hamburgers!

 

[Whosit]

It is the year 2625 of the Beefy Cow. Let us begin.

Turn 55

Not much to do here. I suppose I can check our cities' efficiency . . . but we just have the one.

I like that we have a Warrior and Scout and we're 1.5 Ragnar's power.

Turn 56, 2600 BC

Gunter discovers yet another dye in the fog near Gems Town. Wow, what a site. Also, a lurking bear.

Turn 57, 2575 BC

Bear dodging. Chop begins.

Turn 58, 2550 BC

Lions appear, now. Man, I think the eventual settler will need TWO escorts.

Turn 59, 2525 BC

Gunter turns north to make contact with Monty and to see if that hut is still there.

Great Wall, next turn.

Turn 60, 2500 BC

The Germans have constructed a Great Wall. Y'know, I hate getting this so early, because it seems a little less "great" when it's encircling only one city. Oh, well. Plug in a Settler.

Goody hut is still intact. We get 64 gold. Better'n nothing.

Turn 61, 2475 BC

Ragnar founds a town somewhere. Hopefully not where we want to go. Hmm, start another chop since Wheel's not quite done.

Turn 62, 2450 BC

We hear reports of a massive Barbarian uprising. But we fear not, for we have the Wall!

Turn 63, 2425 BC

Wheel in, now Agriculture.
(Tech pictures got messed up, but we've all seen 'em, I think.)

I leave Gunter next to a lion, but he's on a jungle-hill, so that and the Woody II bonus should keep him alive.

Turn 64, 2400 BC

Well, he survives, but barely. Oh, right, he hit the animal XP cap already. Pop a hut on a neighboring hill, then heal. We get some more gold.

Turn 66, 2350 BC

Our first Settler finishes, put in a Worker. Arg. Town is upset now without a guard. 2nd chop just finished, so time to hook up the gold.

Turn 68, 2300 BC

Border pop. Will get copper shortly.

Turn 70, 2250

Worker done. Agriculture done. Pottery. Slot in Barracks at Berlin.

Gold connects. We're happy again.

Turn 71, 2225 BC

Ragnar didn't settle our stone spot, he nabbed the silks. Also, I realize that I didn't end up saying "hi" to the Aztecs, but I really don't care.

Turn 72, 2200 BC

The town of Hamburg is founded. How appropriate. Slot in monument. There are wild beasties prowling around, so I'm not sure that it's safe to send a worker over just yet.

Turn 73, 2175 BC

Gunter sets off again.

Turn 74, 2150 BC

Realize I started to build a road in a less efficient plot, but oh well. Gunter meets Alexander of the Greeks. Wow. What a bunch of nice, peaceful leaders we have here.

Turn 75, 2125 BC

Barracks is done. We don't have copper connected just yet, soooo . . . a Warror.

Well, that was a nice, fast 20 turns. We're not in slavery yet, but I don't know if we need to switch just yet, but keep it in mind. After the copper gets mined and roaded, we can probably get a worker over to Hamburg safely, though be careful, 'cuz there were wolves about. Chop out the monument htere, and we'll be golden.

After we get a couple of Axemen, send one north to start fog-busting, and then get a settler and escort, and we can get Gems Town. Er, wait, we were going to get Gold 2 first, weren't we . . . Eh.

I just realized . . . we've build the Berlin Wall!

 

[Norvin_Green]

Nice report as always Whosit. Do you have any idea from which direction Alex came? This is shaping up to be a slugfest.

 

[Sengir]

Nice report (and diversion) Whosit.

Looks like Hamburg is going to fight a cultural battle with Ragnars city.

Will look at the save tomorrow morning.

 

[Meiz]

What a joyful bunch we have here

So next ahead is to get gold and gems sites settled while teching IW. Probably a good idea to get some axes out too

Edit: We should work the highest hammer tile in Hamburg to get that monument out little quicker.

 

[Whosit]

@Norvin: Oh, right. I spotted Alex's archer to the northwest, but a bit south of Monty land. Maybe a few leagues west of our Gem-site.
Edit: If we're very, very luck, Monty and Alex will get different religions and hate each other.

@Meiz: Good point about the tile. I wasn't sure if it'd be safe to send a worker across borders, so I thought it might also be possible to grow to size 2, switch to slavery, and whip the monument.