Sengir01 - Spying with a vengeance

[nocho]

Congratulations on the Berlin Wall! Let's not tear it down, ever.

Got it. Will play probably this evening already if nobody minds. Not too much to discuss anyway. Axemen, workers, settlers like Whosit has pointed out and infra in new towns.

Will probably revolt to slavery at some point.

 

[nocho]

Ok, played my set now since maybe I'd be a bit short on time the next couple of days...

T76 Berlin finishes warrior, decide to build another one for fogbusting next settlement.
We meet hinduist Saladin who is already looking with envy at our cows.


T78 Pottery is in, start IW due in 20. Berlin finishes warrior starts on settler.

T81 Judaism FIADL, it turns out to be in Hammurabi's land.

T84 Berlin finishes settler, start on axe.
Hamburg has grown to size 2 so I revolt to slavery to be able to whip the monument. I figured letting Hamburg grow and whipping the monument would be quicker then trying to build it.

T86 Munich is founded at gold/sheep. Didn't want to settle gems yet, as we really need more workers to make that place worthwile with all that jungle around. Besides, still no IW, so gold/sheep seemed a better option.


The monument is whipped in Hamburg.

T87 Hamburg monument -> Granary

T88 We knew that Monty was out there, now he actually says hello.


T89 Stonehenge BIDL. We meet another friendly fellow.


Berlin builds axe. Ponder for a while what to build next. We can grow in 6 turns to size 6, which is the happy cap, building 2 axes in the mean time, or start on a worker or settler first. Decide for the axes. They can go fogbust and are always good to have should any of our friendly neighbours get funny ideas.

T92 Brave Gunter sees a barb archer after the first part of his move so flees away only to end up next to another barb archer. He dies.
Berlin axe -> axe

T95 Berlin grows to size six and axe -> worker

T97 Iron working is in, start writing.
Munich whips monument.

T98 Our first Great Spy is born, the whole nation rejoices! Well, the very few in high government who know about his existence, of course. Hand it off here.

The state of the nation:


We have iron, even within our border, although not in a BFC. It would have been hadn't we moved on turn 1 .

Berlin can now continue churning out workers and settlers exclusively. I suggest we don't whip it. For the other cities the whip, however, will be a useful building tool. By the way, Ragnar's town next to Hamburg already popped borders, so we are suffering cultural pressure already. Our border will pop in 4 turns. Right now it's on a granary which probably can be whipped shortly. After writing I suggest building a library there as soon as possible, not for the science bonus (at 0% research not very useful), not even for the scientist slots, but just for the culture...

And we have the Great Spy of course to play with. I suggest infiltrating the Vikings. On its way to Nidaros it can also do some scouting of the Viking lands in the mean time.

 

[cripp7]

Great! I'm gonna watch this EE game, probable shadow it.

edit: settle that GS, then create a Scotland Yard with the next. Or settle it having 2 settled then a SY. You'll get more EPs that way

 

[Whosit]

Things seem to be moving along swimmingly. Oh, yes:

Roster:
Sengir
Norvin Green
Whosit
nocho (just played)
sturick (up)
Meiz (on deck)

If Berlin is going to be a worker/settler "factory," will our other towns be able to provide enough troops to protect our assets? Either way, I think with another Settler and a couple workers, we can get Gem Town started! Getting Munich's gold mined will be nice, too. Actually, who's good at calculating how many towns we need to turn a profit? Well, I guess we can't do that at 100% science, no matter how much money we're making.

Oh, yeah, and what kind of town were we going to set up Hamburg for? I see farms going online, and with those hills, the stone, and the cows (if we can steal 'em back), it looks like it'd make another nice production hub.

 

[Meiz]

Yeah, there's no reason to infiltrate without Alphabet, so we can use the Gspy to scout in the meanwhile. In my experience infiltration beats settling in the beginning. Immediate profit instead of waiting for EP's to build up with one settled GSpy.

If Berlin is going to be a worker/settler "factory," will our other towns be able to provide enough troops to protect our assets?

We will run out of things to build quite quickly, so I don't see any problems with producing troops. Basically the build order will most likely be monument -> granary -> barracks and then troops and spies for a long time . It's also good idea to slot walls in when we get the stone connected. They increase our power rating and most importantly, are required for castles and their 25% EP bonus.

Oh, yeah, and what kind of town were we going to set up Hamburg for? I see farms going online, and with those hills, the stone, and the cows (if we can steal 'em back), it looks like it'd make another nice production hub.

For me that site would be all about production.

Btw. I'm trying to survive over the weekend with my laptop and use my phone as a modem. If you don't hear from me, I'm probably eaten by a bear (hopefully not by a barbarian archer though...). Or by a very small change, the network connection is out.

 

[PaulisKhan]

For an all espionage game, settling the spy or building scotland yard will probably pay off more in the long run. If you only intended generating one spy then I would advocate infiltration, but the power of accumulated settled spies, or multiple cottaged cities each with a scotland yard (it's like every city has Oxford university!) and running max espionage slider far outweighs the short term benefit of infiltration.

I'm really enjoying watching this game =)

 

[nocho]

Yeah, there's no reason to infiltrate without Alphabet, so we can use the Gspy to scout in the meanwhile. In my experience infiltration beats settling in the beginning. Immediate profit instead of waiting for EP's to build up with one settled GSpy.

For an all espionage game, settling the spy or building scotland yard will probably pay off more in the long run. If you only intended generating one spy then I would advocate infiltration, but the power of accumulated settled spies, or multiple cottaged cities each with a scotland yard (it's like every city has Oxford university!) and running max espionage slider far outweighs the short term benefit of infiltration.

We could indeed run around with the GSpy until we have alpha. Is a GSpy totally invisible, also for animals and barbarians?!

If we don't want to infiltrate I can live with that too... However, in that case I wouldn't do the typical "settle the first, SY with the second" as we're not in typical circumstances. As soon as we have alpha and set the research slider to 0 and the spy slider at whatever we can afford, it's probably more worthwhile to build SY right away. The settled spy gives 12 spy point iirc, but Berlin that pulls roughly 20 commerce would be producing some 16 spy point at 80% spy slider which means SY would be worth 16 as well. Gem town and Munich (if we cottage it up) will eventually pull much more commerce then 12 as well, so saving GSpies for various SYs seems more optimal than settling them.

For me that site would be all about production.

Yeah, Hamburg looks like another production town to me too. I'd cottage Munich to make it another decent commerce town.

By the way, I'd settle gem town next (well, we agreed upon that already) and soon after that the magenta spot on the western coast with the horses. Saladin is not too far away from there.
After that I think there may be another interesting spot to settle in the jungle around the bananas. Either 2N of the western banana (4E of proposed gem site) or maybe right on top of the silk to snatch 2 bananas and another cow.

I'm really enjoying watching this game =)

Always nice to hear that a player of your level (or any level for that matter) is enjoying this!

 

[Meiz]

We also need to remember that we need to see everyones demographics and keep it that way before we can concentrate ep's on a single target. Shouldn't be too hard with scotland yard either, it just takes more time before we can steal something worthwhile.

 

[Sengir]

Gem city next should be next indeed, with the horses/clams/corn site shortly after. In the jungle both East and West of Gem city are decent sites to be found, though they will depend on whether our neighbours in their respective directions first.

About settling/SY/Infiltration: I don't think Berlin will stay our capital (though it might) so in the long run a SY wouldn't be best for that city (also, it will be more about production then commerce anyway), so I wouldn't be for SY there.
We can however decide to settle him in gemcity as that city would be destined for a SY anyway, but that city is still a bit off.
Not really sure what the best play would be, but my gut feeling says that we will be better off with infiltration (scouting untill then) at Nidaros. This would also allow us to steal CoL sooner, making for earlier courthouses, which I think outweighs settling.

EDIT:

We also need to remember that we need to see everyones demographics and keep it that way before we can concentrate ep's on a single target. Shouldn't be too hard with scotland yard either, it just takes more time before we can steal something worthwhile.

This is something to think about as well. With Infiltration it doesn't matter as we will have enough points on one target for stealing anyway.

 

[Whosit]

Oh, all you crazy people on the other side of the Atlantic; all this activity while I'm sleeping.

One thing to point out: I do not believe that Great Spies are invisible, though I might be wrong. I'm pretty sure I've seen AI Great Spies running around before, so I think, in that respect, Great Spies are unlike normal Spies. If we're not at war with someone, no biggie, but don't let him get near Barbarians. (I may be wrong, of course.)

Good point, um, Paulis was first, I think, that building Scotland Yards would net more EPs than settling since we'll be using the Espionage Slider. Generating more Great Spies seems like it's going to be difficult since we'll have to make it half-way through the tech tree before we can hire Spy Specialists in any great numbers.

What would I do with our Great Spy? After reading all of this, I think I'd settle Gem-spot ASAP and then build a Scotland Yard there. Even if we Infiltrate the Vikings, we have to wait until Alphabet to make use of those points . . . . no, wait, I think my logic is wrong here. Oh well.

I suppose, then, I'll just say: Since I don't know how frequently we'll be getting Great Spies in the near future, I think I'd rather spend the one we have on something that'll pay dividends in the long-run. Granted, I'm not sure how far those Infiltration EPs will go, maybe they will last awhile. But if we use them up, we may have a harder time replacing them than in we had a S.Y. in a commerce-heavy town. I usually don't meddle with Espionage that much, so I'm not an expert here.

Also, as I'm sure everyone already knew . . . I checked, and it looks like the only other wonders that produce Great Spies are the Kremlin and The Pentagon, both late-game. Or, later game.

*laughs* Well, someone will figure out what to do with our Spy, I hope.

Edit: Otherwise, our overall strategy in the short-term seems to be agreed upon.

 

[cripp7]

Another option you could do is SYs all around with every GSpy born, would increase your EPs more. Or have a spy warehouse city(whever your capitol is going to be, gem city would produce mega with cottages) settle every GSpy and a SY and run ONLY spy specs

 

[nocho]

Yeah, these SGs are a global business working around the clock!

The main point about infiltrating immediately is that we can start stealing right away after getting alpha. Otherwise we'd have to wait for some while before we have enough EPs, also because of this demographics restriction that Sengir imposed . The sooner we get to CoL the better to get those courthouses up and running and hiring spy specialists. I have a slight doubt if Ragnar is the most adequate to infiltrate though, maybe Hammu is another option as maybe he's more likely to go down the CoL path. Well dunno, at least Ragnar is closest by.

Whomever we would infiltrate, I guess it would be a good idea to trade all techs with him right away and even gifting all our techs away in order for that AI to start teching things we need. We don't want that AI to spend its research on, say, alpha or IW, if he can research something more useful for us. Besides, we'd get that AI at least to pleased which will be good.
As soon as we hit alpha a trade round to pick up early techs we don't have will be in order anyway (fishing, sailing, reli techs), no need to steal those.

Agree with next spy for SY in gem city, a 3rd one possibly for a SY in Munich if we cottage the place.

 

[sturick]

Hello gang!!!

I apologize for the lack of input lately...lots of visitors and stuff around the house have kept me from commenting as much as I usually do.

Wonderful discussion from the whole team...you know its gotta be great when I am the least active participant...just ask Sengir and Norvin!

First up...I will play tomorrow morning.

I totally agree with Nochos settle order...but I imagine I will just settle gems during my set.
Our gold mines and gem mines should allow us to REX quite a bit before our economy bogs down.
I bet we could get close to 7 or 8 cities built and still have a decent spyconomy.

Large wrapping maps like this one are going to have lots of room for everyone to sprawl out before running into each other...Ragnar excluded of course.

The Great Wall will allow us to not have to build quite as many fogbusters as we would have to otherwise.

My take on the "Great Spy Debate":

Does anyone know how many EPs we would get from an infiltration???
Is it a constant?

The only problem that I see with SY in gems city is the fact that until we move the palace over there it will generate ZERO EPs until we start using the slider. Granted that point is not too far off.

Berlin will make another spy in 75 turns...that is quite a ways away but it gives us time to prep our empire.
No polluting the pool with any other wonders or specs please!

We will likely be in slider mode by then.
By that time our gems city will have the palace and plenty of gems mines up and producing tons of commerce to convert into EPs.
A Scotland Yard at that time makes alot of sense.

So I say we scout out Rags territory with him for now.
Then we infiltrate him with the spy for a load of points.
These points should be saved to use on a CoL steal first and foremost imo.
Early courthouses are HUGE to our success for obvious reasons.
I think we can steal the cheap religious prereqs pretty easily...or trade for them with Alpha for that matter.

Then we have a pool that we can save for stealing more techs or revolting a city later on if we need to.

As far as future GSpies go...I don't think we should ever just settle them.
Think about it...settling a Great Spy would net us 42 EPs with all of the EP multipliers.

Castle +25%
Jail +50%
Intel Agency +50%
Scotland Yard +100%
Nationhood +25%
12*3.5=42 EPs

Now a Scotland Yard gives +100% to all spy buildings.
Courthouse +2
Jail +4
Intel Agency +8
Security Bureau +8
Thats 22 EPs from just the buildings alone.

Now when you factor in any spy specs we might run and the commerce converted to EPs we should easily surpass 42 EPs by building the SY.

Therefore, I think we are best suited to building a SY in each of our best commerce cities rather than trying to make one super spy city.

Whew...that was alot longer than I thought it would be.
I will be back later on with more thoughts.

 

[Sengir]

Infiltration gives 4500 espionage points on Epic.

 

[Norvin_Green]

My initial thoughts on who we want to concentrate on would be Hammurabi. In my SP games he usually techs well plus he has already picked up a religion. His favorite civic is Bureaucracy which looks like will be our preferred civic. Of course, that depends on where religion spreads but if we keep Ragnar and Hammurabi happy it looks like everyone else would be to our west and we can just slowly spread that way picking one civ off at a time. Mind you this is just conjecture. (factored in with being bored at work on a dreary day)

 

[nocho]

One thing to point out: I do not believe that Great Spies are invisible, though I might be wrong. I'm pretty sure I've seen AI Great Spies running around before, so I think, in that respect, Great Spies are unlike normal Spies. If we're not at war with someone, no biggie, but don't let him get near Barbarians. (I may be wrong, of course.)

Just checked, it says "Invisible to all units" about great spies in the reference pages on this site, so I suppose he can freely walk around without being hassled...

 

[sturick]

Let us begin!

A quick tour of the cities...

Everything looks good...I just need to monitor for good whipping opportunities in Munich and Hamburg.

I send our scout to investigate Ragnars lands...no infiltration yet as we haven't come to any decision there.

Well all thats left for us to tech is Writing, Alphabet and Fishing.
Writing it is...8 turns away.

(1) 1525 BC

The Oracle was founded in a far away land!
That seems pretty quick to me.

Gilgamesh has an archer by our fogbusters.
Our unpromoted axe looks at the archer and his FIVE promos with envy!

I tune down our tech rate to keep a small stash of gold on hand for emergencies.
Only lost one turn on Writing at 80%

(2) 1500 BC

Berlin worker>worker

Turns out that Babylon built the Oracle...would have been nice of them to take CoL with their freebie.

Our newly created worker will be building connecting roads with our cities.

(3) 1475 BC

Our spy has entered Ragnars territory and the espionage has begun!

(4) 1450 BC

Ragnar has copper in his capitals BFC.

(5) 1425 BC

I am beginning to hook up the stone resource at Hamburg.

We have a 12% cultural claim on the cows in Hamburgs BFC.
Oh they will be ours Rags!

(6) 1400 BC

Berlin worker>axe>settler

(7) 1375 BC

Munich grew to size 2 but still not enough to whip the granary.

(8) 1350 BC

I don't know exactly when it happened and it shouldn't surprise anyone but Monty is in WHEOOHRN mode.

Sally wants OBs.
I say no because we aren't connected and because Monty will likely attack him soon.

Writing in next turn.

(9) 1325 BC

We meet Gandhi...more eyeballs on our beef!



We get Writing and I begin Alphabet.



Monty comes asking for OBs but this time I accept.
Anything we can do to improve relations with him is a good thing.

Hamburg can finally whip out its granary...2 pop whip with 37 overflow.
Also we are at 24% ownership on the cow tile.

(10) 1300 BC

Our spy is still gathering intel on Rags lands.

(11) 1275 BC

Yawn...

(12) 1250 BC

Farm built at Munich.

(13) 1225 BC

Our spy finds Gandhis lands to the east of Rags.

(14) 1200 BC

More scouting and roading to the gems site.

(15) 1175 BC

Meh...

(16) 1150 BC

Alex comes a calling for OBs.
He is Gandhis worst enemy so I decline.

Then we get the stupid slave revolt event.



One frackin turn before the settler is finished.
Lousy timing...i pay to put down the revolt.

(17) 1125 BC

Berlin is out of revolt now.

I can whip the granary in Munich so I do it.

Quarry is built for Hamburg...hooking it up now for quicker walls!

(18) 1100 BC

Since we are still 22 turns away from Alpha I will play until I settle the gems city.
Seems like a good enough stopping point.

Speaking of settlers, Berlin finishes one and begins a granary.

Not sure what to build in Munich.
A library will do us no good.
This is a commerce town so barracks don't make sense.
I guess I will start on building walls here.

(19) 1075 BC

Library can be whipped in Hamburg...we will win the culture battle handily now!

(20) 1050 BC

Hamburg library>barracks

I slow grow slightly by working the newly finished gold mine at Munich.
Too bad I just realized that it is a desert mine...GRRRR!

Our Great Wall is making the barbs flock to Ragnar!



(21) 1025 BC

Almost there gang!

(22) 1000 BC

Settler in place and founding next turn!

(23) 975 BC

Berlin granary>axe for scouting

We have founded Cologne!
You will have to trust me...I took the screenshot but then a high ranking government official said that I couldn't post it for national security reasons.
Top secret operation this gems city must be!

I can say that the jungle unhealthy is a serious problem here.
We are stagnant at the current moment so growth will be slow to say the least.

Wrapup

Cologne has a worker poised and ready to start chopping out the grassland gems.
There is another worker by Munich that can come up to help out.
Finishing the road connection to Cologne will grant us one health point. Then the two workers should mine the gems tiles and clearcut those jungles.

It looks like Ragnar might do us a favor and road and pasture the cows by Hamburg for us. We should culturally take over that tile by the end of the next set.

Speaking of Hamburg...perhaps we should build the Pyramids here.
It will provide a huge cultural boost to pressure Rags...and we can also revolt to HR for the extra happies. Avoiding a SE with Rep is the right thing to do considering the variant. But the extra happiness for more whipping seems like a good thing though right?

Roster
Sengir ---> in the hole
Norvin Green
Whosit
nocho
Sturick ---> just played
Meiz ---> preparing to avoid death by bears

 

[Norvin_Green]

I think that we aren't allowed to build the 'mids.

 

[sturick]

Oh...I thought just adopting Rep from the mids was off limits.
Not a big deal...we need Hamburg to pump out units if Berlin is to be our worker/settler pump anyways.

 

[Whosit]

Well, actually, that's a good point . . . the rules say no Pyramids to avoid Representational shenanigans, but perhaps we can build them as denial/culture and simply not adopt Rep until we would have otherwise learned it?

Anyway, sounds like you played well, stu. Rick. Sturick. Yes. I do fervently hope that Monty's eyes are not on us. If we can afford it, maybe we should beef up Cologne's garrison since that would probably be Monty's first stop if he heads our way.

Will take a look at the save later. I still need to get my clearance to see that "classified info." Heh heh heh. (That was a good joke, sturick.)