Separation of church and state ?

[Algeroth]

But seriously, we didn't even have any sort of pledge to the communist state when I was growing up in communist Poland.

Seems like such an uncivilized practice.

Poland didn't have some sort of "volunteer" Pioneer organization that you could "opt out" under some polish version of Union of Communist Youth?

 

[GamezRule]

Defying the Supremes...a proud Democratic Party tradition since Andrew Jackson.

The Democratic party, of course, being the conservative party of the time, and perhaps also a tad bit reactionary.

 

[peter grimes]

How do you possibly take that from what I said.
Some things are clearly violations...
Such as Obama detaining people without trial indefinitely... forcing kids to say the pledge... etc.
I don't need the SC to tell me this.
However, often times, something that is wrong remains law UNTIL the SC unmakes it.

If a child is forced to say the pledge, it is unconstitutional (even if they don't say "God" anywhere in it, forcing allegiance is not freedom, but that's my opinion).

OK, I've gone back through your posts in this thread, and I've misunderstood your position.

Sorry about that.

There are two things you mention here that I am in complete agreement with:
1. The Obama administration has done more damage to civil rights than the idiot he succeeded (read this Washington Post Op-Ed for more)

2. Something that is wrong (whether it be moral or legal or commercial) remains the status quo until we get first legislative action and then Supreme Court ruling. If the changed law weren't controversial then nobody would bother to bring a suit against it. It's only the stuff that rubs against a moneyed interest group that ever gets a hearing before the Court. For better or worse.

 

[Berzerker]

If a child is forced to say the pledge, it is unconstitutional (even if they don't say "God" anywhere in it, forcing allegiance is not freedom, but that's my opinion).

but coercing allegiance is freedom?

 

[kochman]

but coercing allegiance is freedom?

What?
I really don't get what you are getting at...

I don't agree that optional pledge saying is coersion. Anytime coersion in introduced to the situation, it is a bad thing.

 

[warpus]

Poland didn't have some sort of "volunteer" Pioneer organization that you could "opt out" under some polish version of Union of Communist Youth?

Granted I was only in elementary school from grade 1-3, but I don't remember any such thing.

It's surprising because Poland was very gung-ho about its nationalism at the time.. It was supported by the Russians and mostly anti-German. So when when I found out about the pledge in the U.S. it seemed very over the top, considering that we didn't do anything like that.

But that's just my pov

 

[LucyDuke]

I don't remember names... but I knew it was optional.
I didn't opt out, but other kids did, and it was never a problem.

I still have yet to hear of one tale of lasting damage from reciting some pledge as a child, from all these objections...
One tale of lasting damage... that would be a good start for these meaningless objections to such a small issue.

I'm honestly surprised to hear that the Northeast is the only place in the country that children are hassled for declining to participate in weird nationalist chanting.

But hey, whatever. If (a disputable) "it doesn't hurt anybody" is all you have to defend it, you're beyond reach. It's still creepy and pointless and a waste of (school!) time.

Ultimately, it shouldn't be practiced, but since it isn't required, nor is there any kind of cultural pressure to practice it, I don't care if it continues. Similarly Justin Bieber shouldn't happen, but since I can choose to never hear a single song of his (though I had to hear him not know what Germany was and then claim that we didn't have it in America... wily Canadian implying he's an American when he looks like an idiot) I don't care if teenage girls love him.

It is a cold war leftover. And there is cultural pressure. And Justin Bieber? That doesn't even make any goddamn sense, try making comparisons that have something to do with the topic.