Separation of church and state ?

[MantaRevan]

And it's unnecessary, America's evangelicals still insist that it's bloody murder to take away the bloody useless thing. They'd have less nationalism without that sort of things, and less pride wars. When capitalized, god becomes a proper noun, and therefor becomes [i/]specific. Saying that it can mean something like that that is clearly isn't, is foolish. It's like saying,

"Well if your issue is with using the word [i/]pledge, then just pretend that 'pledge' means 'lampshade'."

 

[peter grimes]

It is optional.
How difficult is that to understand?

Let's say that most kids just "go allowing without thinking"... which I don't really care to debate.
How does it harm them in the long run? If they optionally partake in it as children.

So I guess you'd be fine with this:
http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/2012/IN/IN0251.1.html

Synopsis: School prayer. Allows the governing body of a school corporation or the equivalent authority of a charter school to provide for the recitation of the Lord's Prayer at the beginning of each school day.

Sec. 4.6. (a) In order that each student recognize the importance of spiritual development in establishing character and becoming a good citizen, the governing body of a school corporation or the equivalent authority of a charter school may require the recitation of the Lord's Prayer at the beginning of each school day. The prayer may be recited by a teacher, a student, or the class of students.
(b) If the governing body or equivalent authority requires the recitation of the Lord's Prayer under subsection (a), the governing body or equivalent authority shall determine the version of the Lord's Prayer that will be recited in the school corporation or charter school.
(c) A student is exempt from participation in the prayer if:
(1) the student chooses not to participate; or
(2) the student's parent chooses to have the student not
participate.

See? It's totally optional!

 

[MantaRevan]

Err....so how's the reaction on the senate floor?

 

[LucyDuke]

Well, again, individual teachers are just like anyone else... they can be wrong and enforce incorrect things.
I always knew it was optional, growing up... and I went to a variety of schools being an Army brat...

Really? Who told you it was optional when you were six years old? How many different schoolteachers okayed your opting out?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I remember one time being told I had to at least stand for it by a teacher who never did. He was a Jehovah's Witness and said it went against his religion, but that those who were not part of an organized religion that explicitly forbade it had to participate.

 

[MantaRevan]

See? Just because that's what the supreme court decided, doesn't mean anyone's enforcing it.

 

[Berzerker]

What the hell do you think religious freedom is? Because the pledge is most certainly not such a violation. YOU HAVE A CHOICE in whether you say it or not. Nobody is forcing or coercing you to do so. Yes, not all kids, especially young ones, have the courage to stand up to others and refuse to recite it.

You contradicted yourself, if no coercion was involved it wouldn't take courage to stand against it. And having the option to resist the coercion doesn't make it disappear. As for religious freedom, it means the absence of coercion or constraint - teachers telling children to stand and pledge their allegiance to the state and its god is coercive and a violation of their religious freedom.

 

[warpus]

I'm not entirely sure why we need a pledge of allegiance in the first place, and I never did.

I've always found it a bit fascist. First time I heard about it I didn't really believe that any country west of the iron curtain would make their kids do that.

 

[Traitorfish]

I've always found it a bit fascist.

Spoiler :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute

 

[warpus]

But seriously, we didn't even have any sort of pledge to the communist state when I was growing up in communist Poland.

Seems like such an uncivilized practice.

 

[peter grimes]

Seems like such an uncivilized practice.

It is.

It's really tough to get USA! USA! USA! without it

 

[kochman]

So I guess you'd be fine with this:
http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/2012/IN/IN0251.1.html
See? It's totally optional!

Ummm. That's not for public schools... so, yes, I am fine with private schools, which are often religious, doing that.
Attendance at private schools isn't only optional, it's a paid for option.

Really? Who told you it was optional when you were six years old? How many different schoolteachers okayed your opting out?

I don't remember names... but I knew it was optional.
I didn't opt out, but other kids did, and it was never a problem.

I still have yet to hear of one tale of lasting damage from reciting some pledge as a child, from all these objections...
One tale of lasting damage... that would be a good start for these meaningless objections to such a small issue.

 

[warpus]

Just because something is a stupid idea doesn't mean it has to leave lasting damage..

 

[wilycoyote]

I always opted out of saying it and never heard anything from anyone about it. That was also my experience with praying at the dinner table (which normally only happened on special occasions). I always found it strange, both the pledging allegiance part and the "under God" part. To me, it seemed like an artifact of the Cold War (though I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't connected to that at all).

Ultimately, it shouldn't be practiced, but since it isn't required, nor is there any kind of cultural pressure to practice it, I don't care if it continues. Similarly Justin Bieber shouldn't happen, but since I can choose to never hear a single song of his (though I had to hear him not know what Germany was and then claim that we didn't have it in America... wily Canadian implying he's an American when he looks like an idiot) I don't care if teenage girls love him.

 

[Bestbank Tiger]

See? Just because that's what the supreme court decided, doesn't mean anyone's enforcing it.

Defying the Supremes...a proud Democratic Party tradition since Andrew Jackson.

 

[peter grimes]

Ummm. That's not for public schools...

Ummm. No, it's for any school:

An Indiana state senator has proposed a measure that would allow public schools to require students say the Lord’s Prayer every day.

Under a bill authored by Sen. Jim Tomes, R-Wadesville, public school corporations and charter schools could opt to have students recite the prayer at the beginning of each school day.

[source]

Does this change your stance?

 

[kochman]

Ummm. No, it's for any school:

[source]

Does this change your stance?

Well, if that is the case, I don't support it, and it won't last even if passed... that Constitution of ours and all...

 

[peter grimes]

(...) it won't last even if passed... that Constitution of ours and all...

So you're stance is that if the Supreme Court deems something unconstitutional then you're against it, but until they do you're ambivalent?

Or are you saying that you disagree with the Supreme Court rulings in this area? It's difficult to understand what you mean in this case.

I only ask because it seems to me that earlier you were saying that since 6 year olds were legally allowed to opt out of this sort of thing it was OK, despite the lack of a ruling from the Supreme Court.

 

[kochman]

So you're stance is that if the Supreme Court deems something unconstitutional then you're against it, but until they do you're ambivalent?

Or are you saying that you disagree with the Supreme Court rulings in this area? It's difficult to understand what you mean in this case.

I only ask because it seems to me that earlier you were saying that since 6 year olds were legally allowed to opt out of this sort of thing it was OK, despite the lack of a ruling from the Supreme Court.

How do you possibly take that from what I said.
Some things are clearly violations...
Such as Obama detaining people without trial indefinitely... forcing kids to say the pledge... etc.
I don't need the SC to tell me this.
However, often times, something that is wrong remains law UNTIL the SC unmakes it.

If a child is forced to say the pledge, it is unconstitutional (even if they don't say "God" anywhere in it, forcing allegiance is not freedom, but that's my opinion).

 

[wilycoyote]

So you're stance is that if the Supreme Court deems something unconstitutional then you're against it, but until they do you're ambivalent?

Or are you saying that you disagree with the Supreme Court rulings in this area? It's difficult to understand what you mean in this case.

I only ask because it seems to me that earlier you were saying that since 6 year olds were legally allowed to opt out of this sort of thing it was OK, despite the lack of a ruling from the Supreme Court.

Worrying about this is like worrying about sharia law (because Fox News says so). We have a constitution. People can propose anything they want. If those bills are against the constitution, as this would be, they WON'T go into effect.