Separation of church and state ?

[Cutlass]

"Worse than that"... ahahhahahahaahaaa.
Come on, is it really so bad?
You guys need to lighten up. It is a deist thing to say, anyhow... any monotheistic religion fits... and it's not mandated for the sake of polys and atheists.

Yes, it is. There was no excuse for inserting religion into something that was perfectly fine without it. Better without it, as far as that goes.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Having minors who don't really understand what they are doing well enough to give informed consent pledge allegiance to anything is bad enough.

 

[kochman]

Yes, it is. There was no excuse for inserting religion into something that was perfectly fine without it. Better without it, as far as that goes.

Again, not mandatory.

Having minors who don't really understand what they are doing well enough to give informed consent pledge allegiance to anything is bad enough.

Well, if it isn't well enough informed consent... it isn't really serious anyhow... so big whoop.



I really don't understand this anti-pledge movement. Did you say it as a kid? Are you irreparably damaged, or even damaged at all by it?
Nope... nor were some of our parents... many are now atheists, buddhists, what have you...
Get over it.

 

[Berzerker]

Nonsense... coercion... teachers agents of the states... you exaggerate.

"Worse than that"... ahahhahahahaahaaa.
Come on, is it really so bad?
You guys need to lighten up. It is a deist thing to say, anyhow... any monotheistic religion fits... and it's not mandated for the sake of polys and atheists.

I really don't understand this anti-pledge movement. Did you say it as a kid? Are you irreparably damaged, or even damaged at all by it?
Nope... nor were some of our parents... many are now atheists, buddhists, what have you...
Get over it.

Some kids get beat up for refusing, and I suppose even more get treated negatively by school staff - agents of the government too. Thats why its coercive, children understand if they dont say it they may be, will likely be mistreated. Not many kids will look their teachers in the eye and refuse to recite it... As for myself, I recited the Pledge when I was told to and had no problem. I was Catholic then... I oppose the Pledge because it violates the religious freedom of other people and does so in the name of God. Its becoming even more offensive the older and hopefully smarter I get.

 

[kochman]

Some kids get beat up for refusing, and I suppose even more get treated negatively by school staff - agents of the government too. Thats why its coercive, children understand if they dont say it they may be, will likely be mistreated. Not many kids will look their teachers in the eye and refuse to recite it... As for myself, I recited the Pledge when I was told to and had no problem. I was Catholic then... I oppose the Pledge because it violates the religious freedom of other people and does so in the name of God. Its becoming even more offensive the older and hopefully smarter I get.

Kids get beat for refusing? Well, that's like marines pissing on corpses... you can't make everyone do the right thing. Teachers also molest students sometimes... shall we judge that?

So, you didn't answer, what harm did it do you? You clearly have your own mind now... so what if kids say it?

 

[classical_hero]

Yes, you are correct. There's an important principle, called 'stare decisis' which means 'let the decision stand', that restrains the current judges from re-interpreting previous judges' rulings. The recent case of Citizen's United was notable because it was a rare example of a sitting court re-opening a case that had already been decided.

The principle of precedent also means that this:

misrepresents the actual practice.

I'm sure people with actual legal training and experience would be able to offer a more complete explanation.

Where's JollyRoger?

Unfortunately that is true, even when the Supreme court makes rulings that are not right, as in the case of Dred Scott.

 

[Traitorfish]

So, you didn't answer, what harm did it do you? You clearly have your own mind now... so what if kids say it?

That is not how freedom works.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I'm not entirely sure why we need a pledge of allegiance in the first place, and I never did.

 

[kochman]

That is not how freedom works.

Uh, you aren't forced to say it...
That's how freedom works. Did you just decide for another one liner without reading any context again?

 

[Berzerker]

Kids get beat for refusing? Well, that's like marines pissing on corpses... you can't make everyone do the right thing. Teachers also molest students sometimes... shall we judge that?

umm...yes?

So, you didn't answer, what harm did it do you? You clearly have your own mind now... so what if kids say it?

I answered your question and you quoted the answer... It aint about me reciting the Pledge, I dont want to help you coerce other people's children into pledging their allegiance to the state and its God. Its as simple as that... I believe in religious freedom and the Pledge is a violation of religious freedom.

 

[arya126]

umm...yes?



I answered your question and you quoted the answer... It aint about me reciting the Pledge, I dont want to help you coerce other people's children into pledging their allegiance to the state and its God. Its as simple as that... I believe in religious freedom and the Pledge is a violation of religious freedom.

What the hell do you think religious freedom is? Because the pledge is most certainly not such a violation. YOU HAVE A CHOICE in whether you say it or not. Nobody is forcing or coercing you to do so. Yes, not all kids, especially young ones, have the courage to stand up to others and refuse to recite it. But thats not our fault. The option to choose not to recite it is there. They could even recite their own prayer of another religion, or what have you, of their choice in place. Like has been said before, the pledge doesn't even specify what religion its God is of, even though it was obviously inserted in the spirit of christianity. If a child so wishes, they could believe 'God' meant Allah.

 

[LucyDuke]

Can "God" mean "no god"? If not, then the state telling the kid to say it is an endorsement of God. Crazy how difficult that concept is for some people.

 

[GamezRule]

Kids get beat for refusing? Well, that's like marines pissing on corpses... you can't make everyone do the right thing. Teachers also molest students sometimes... shall we judge that?

I'm going to go with a solid yes.

 

[Cutlass]

What the hell do you think religious freedom is? Because the pledge is most certainly not such a violation. YOU HAVE A CHOICE in whether you say it or not. Nobody is forcing or coercing you to do so. Yes, not all kids, especially young ones, have the courage to stand up to others and refuse to recite it. But thats not our fault. The option to choose not to recite it is there. They could even recite their own prayer of another religion, or what have you, of their choice in place. Like has been said before, the pledge doesn't even specify what religion its God is of, even though it was obviously inserted in the spirit of christianity. If a child so wishes, they could believe 'God' meant Allah.

Actually, the fact that you know most children will go along without thinking of it or be afraid to stand against it is specifically why it is and should be enforced as unconstitutional.

 

[kochman]

Can "God" mean "no god"? If not, then the state telling the kid to say it is an endorsement of God. Crazy how difficult that concept is for some people.

It is optional.
How difficult is that to understand?

I'm going to go with a solid yes.

My wording could have been better.
Shall we judge all teachers because some teachers do the wrong thing?
No... a solid no.

Actually, the fact that you know most children will go along without thinking of it or be afraid to stand against it is specifically why it is and should be enforced as unconstitutional.

Let's say that most kids just "go allowing without thinking"... which I don't really care to debate.
How does it harm them in the long run? If they optionally partake in it as children.

 

[LucyDuke]

It is optional.
How difficult is that to understand?

I know at least three school administrators that had an awfully hard time understanding that in the nineties. I suppose they're the exception, and "it is optional" is carefully explained to all the other schoolteachers? And it was just every school I've ever heard of that didn't tell the children "we're going to recite the pledge of allegiance now, and talk about God, but you don't have to", that in all the other schools it's explained to the children that "it is optional"?

 

[Cutlass]

Let's say that most kids just "go allowing without thinking"... which I don't really care to debate.
How does it harm them in the long run? If they optionally partake in it as children.

The point is that the religious instruction of the child is the responsibility of the parents. The government has no right to do anything that might interfere with that. In fact, they have the obligation to do nothing for or against any religion*.


* With the caveat that someone cannot exercise their religion in such a manner as to bring harm to others.

 

[MantaRevan]

WARNING! MAY CONTAIN SOAPBOX OPINIONS!

I agree. The pledge has sickened me ever since I was old enough to understand what it was. Pressuring children into pledging allegiance to a country that they have no affiliation with, other than the fact that they were born there is bad enough. But then it also attempts to impose Christian(under God, not god) beliefs to these kids, and they have no idea what these strange words that they must say really imply. I stopped saying it in 7th grade, and everyone thought I was weird or something. In high school, I got in serious trouble for 'disobeying my teachers' over my outright defiance of it. Even today, whenever I see Swedish kids pledge it makes me want to vomit.

 

[kochman]

I know at least three school administrators that had an awfully hard time understanding that in the nineties. I suppose they're the exception, and "it is optional" is carefully explained to all the other schoolteachers? And it was just every school I've ever heard of that didn't tell the children "we're going to recite the pledge of allegiance now, and talk about God, but you don't have to", that in all the other schools it's explained to the children that "it is optional"?

Well, again, individual teachers are just like anyone else... they can be wrong and enforce incorrect things.
I always knew it was optional, growing up... and I went to a variety of schools being an Army brat...

The point is that the religious instruction of the child is the responsibility of the parents. The government has no right to do anything that might interfere with that. In fact, they have the obligation to do nothing for or against any religion*.


* With the caveat that someone cannot exercise their religion in such a manner as to bring harm to others.

You are equating the last sentence of the pledge with religious instruction?
That's a stretch.
Again, not mandatory, and what harm has come from it?

WARNING! MAY CONTAIN SOAPBOX OPINIONS!

I agree. The pledge has sickened me ever since I was old enough to understand what it was. Pressuring children into pledging allegiance to a country that they have no affiliation with, other than the fact that they were born there is bad enough. But then it also attempts to impose Christian(under God, not god) beliefs to these kids, and they have no idea what these strange words that they must say really imply. I stopped saying it in 7th grade, and everyone thought I was weird or something. In high school, I got in serious trouble for 'disobeying my teachers' over my outright defiance of it. Even today, whenever I see Swedish kids pledge it makes me want to vomit.

God can be any god, in the mind of who is saying it... if they are monotheistic anyhow.

 

[Cutlass]

You are equating the last sentence of the pledge with religious instruction?
That's a stretch.
Again, not mandatory, and what harm has come from it?

It is coercive. That is inherently harmful.