Serfdom

[Brennus.Quigley]

Ok, but I'm kind of confused about why you'd do this when bronze working is one of the best early techs because of chopping, even if you don't want to use slavery.

Please explain...

First, the advantages of chopping are map and goal specific. Not all capital regions have a lot of forest. Either that or you want to save the forests for their health benefits and/or a future National Park (imagine a lakeside capital with both lots of food and lots of forests—a specialist city that you may one day want to enhance with a National Park).

Second, if I have stone and can build the Pyramids or the Hanging Gardens, I'll sometimes use that first Great Engineer to bulb Feudalism. You can only do this early if you skip Bronze Working and instead tech Monarchy. It can be the optimal strategy with the right leader or on the right map. Then once I have a labor civic (serfdom), a good military unit (longbowmen), and can tech Civil Service, I am less interested in wasting science on Bronze Working or Code of Laws.

I'll certainly go metals early if it makes sense, but sometimes the Feudalism path makes more sense. You can always get the metal techs in a later trade.

 

[coanda]

I'd be interested in seeing a game or two in which you do this no-self-teching-BW opening you talk of. My instinctive reaction is that it simply would cost you too much to pass up Slavery and chops for that long, but maybe you can show me a game which proves that instinct incorrect.

 

[Manco Capac]

I'll sometimes use that first Great Engineer to bulb Feudalism. You can only do this early if you skip Bronze Working and instead tech Monarchy. It can be the optimal strategy with the right leader or on the right map.

Interesting. That strategy is a very unknown one as I heard it few times.
IIRC, to get feudalism via bulbing (instead of the oracle gamble), either a GArtist or a GEngineer can do that. The Great Artist is really irrealistic, so the GEngineer is needed. So you need some kind of a heavy hammers capital with few forests and beeline Masonry to get the sine qua non Mids. You beeline the religious path, which means Monarchy and once you get Writing and Monarchy, you bulb Feudalism once the GEngineer shows that opportunity.
Indeed, as you said, BW is a forbidden tech for this bulb strategy and a heavy hammers and commerce map is needed (by commerce I mean rivers to be general).

I always thought that strategy is suboptimal because first feudalism is good for vassals. Longbows aren't that great and cost a lot. Then without BW, no pre-chop, slowed down expansion, etc. It is more a EMP and less strategy I think. And mids is another factor that slow down the war preparation although Police State helps a bit to make up the waiting time. If you have enough happy resources.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

My instinctive reaction is that it simply would cost you too much to pass up Slavery and chops for that long, but maybe you can show me a game which proves that instinct incorrect.

The slavery/chopping strategy is one that is often times optimal, but not always. Obviously, the less forests available for chopping or the less of them you want to chop, the less effective chopping will be. I play fractal random sea levels and random terrain on Immortal. Low sea levels means less forests. Arid or mountainous land means less forests. And I know it's not a popular strategy, but I'm serious about that rare capital that is just perfect for a specialist city and future National Park. If you can get to biology early via bulbing or lib, having a specialist capital with something like 22 scientists in a republic with pacifism is off the hook. And as for slavery, less food makes it less effective. It's also map dependent. Anyway, I'll chop and whip early sometimes, just not all the time. Sorry no save, but feel free to give it a shot in the right situation.

Interesting. That strategy is a very unknown one as I heard it few times.

Am sure others have done it, but I did have to figure it out on my own. I'll actually use it about 1/3 of the time when I have stone. Machinery can also be a good first great engineer bulb depending on the situation. Rushing a marble wonder can also be good.

a heavy hammers and commerce map is needed (by commerce I mean rivers to be general).

Not if the river has forests. Chopping river banks is attractive. Lake starts with stone are ideal, I guess. Stone is a must.

Longbows aren't that great and cost a lot.

Again, it depends. Granted the metal units and horse units have better offensive value, but the longbows have better defensive value. More so with a protective leader (even more so with Sitting Bull because of the totem pole). They also are not resource dependent. If I'm bulbing feudalism with a great engineer, I know I'll get some longbows. Bronze, iron, and horses, I'm not sure if I'll have the resource for the unit unless it's a special resourceless version. I guess if one freely rerolls the map or allows themselves to quit and start over when things are not going well, then gambling on metals or anything for that matter is more attractive. But I like to try to win each single player map I roll (less concerned about my "highest score") and also consistently play some 4-month long, multiplayer games where you're stuck with whatever land and resource situation you got. Gotta learn to be versatile. I've seen some starts with no horses, bronze, elephants, or iron, and with aggressive neighbors. Tell me early longbows wouldn't be nice in that situation!

And mids is another factor that slow down the war preparation although Police State helps a bit to make up the waiting time.

One doesn't have to wage an early offensive war every game!

slowed down expansion

Actually, serfdom can mean only 2/3 the usual amount of workers if you want to play it that way, and that could help growth. The food and hammers for the other 1/3 can go into settlers. Even more so for non-expansive leaders.

One final point. Getting vassalage early is also great. Can start to slow build up a well-promoted, good size army without dragging down the economy or whipping up a lot of unhappiness.

A side question: how do I get it to say immortal instead of chieftain under my name? I already listed my Civ IV level as Immortal. Am new to posting.

 

[Merovech]

It's based on the number of posts you have, not your skill level. I certainly don't play chieftan, for example.

I find your strategy very interesting. I've seen Oracling feudalism, but never bulbing it. It certainly seems suboptimal to aviod bronzeworking, but if it works on immortal with consitency, then it can't be too bad. I'd love to see a game like this.

 

[UnforcedError]

It's really refreshing to read about alternative strategies like this. Brennus, if you roll up a fitting start next time could you please post the game? I'd love to see how this works in practice.

Anyway, I've given it some thought and I do have a few questions regarding this approach:
1. You'd have to build the Mids without chopping / whipping into it which means
-- multiple bare grassland hills / prod tiles (+ food) necessary (or do you work forested tiles too?)
-- multiple early happy resources necessary (or a very early Monarchy?)
-- it will still make the city building it unusable for anything else for a long time, so you will need at least 2 good food / hammer sites almost immediately to take over the early game production needs (and again, you cannot chop / bulb which will slow down your expansion in itself not just because you're building the Mids).
I assume the ultimate goal is to get an early Feudalism AND have Rep / PS too, otherwise oracling Feudalism as Merovech suggested is definitely more cost effective and does not deprive you of BW. Yet another question: how do you proceed after getting the Mids and bulbing Feudalism? How many cities do you have at this point in general? (I guess the best idea is to go choke a neighboring AI with longbows while you're building up an army. In fact steal workers with your early archers and follow up with longbows. Do you use Guerilla promos?)

 

[Manco Capac]

The slavery/chopping strategy is one that is often times optimal, but not always. Obviously, the less forests available for chopping or the less of them you want to chop, the less effective chopping will be. I play fractal random sea levels and random terrain on Immortal. Low sea levels means less forests. Arid or mountainous land means less forests. And I know it's not a popular strategy, but I'm serious about that rare capital that is just perfect for a specialist city and future National Park. If you can get to biology early via bulbing or lib, having a specialist capital with something like 22 scientists in a republic with pacifism is off the hook. And as for slavery, less food makes it less effective. It's also map dependent. Anyway, I'll chop and whip early sometimes, just not all the time. Sorry no save, but feel free to give it a shot in the right situation.

Now, I can figure well what kind of map where that strategy shines given the lack of use from BW: our surroundings are lacking forest and food is laking too. Like a start with many cows, plain sheeps and really bad food resources, but balanced with hammers.

Am sure others have done it, but I did have to figure it out on my own. I'll actually use it about 1/3 of the time when I have stone. Machinery can also be a good first great engineer bulb depending on the situation. Rushing a marble wonder can also be good.



Not if the river has forests. Chopping river banks is attractive. Lake starts with stone are ideal, I guess. Stone is a must.



Again, it depends. Granted the metal units and horse units have better offensive value, but the longbows have better defensive value. More so with a protective leader (even more so with Sitting Bull because of the totem pole). They also are not resource dependent. If I'm bulbing feudalism with a great engineer, I know I'll get some longbows. Bronze, iron, and horses, I'm not sure if I'll have the resource for the unit unless it's a special resourceless version. I guess if one freely rerolls the map or allows themselves to quit and start over when things are not going well, then gambling on metals or anything for that matter is more attractive. But I like to try to win each single player map I roll (less concerned about my "highest score") and also consistently play some 4-month long, multiplayer games where you're stuck with whatever land and resource situation you got. Gotta learn to be versatile. I've seen some starts with no horses, bronze, elephants, or iron, and with aggressive neighbors. Tell me early longbows wouldn't be nice in that situation!

The problem with early longbows is simply you cannot tell for sure you don't have copper or iron as those two resources are locked in mystery until the bulb is done.
Indeed, getting early longbows eliminate entirely the gamble.


One doesn't have to wage an early offensive war every game!

I know that, but I am a pretty aggressive player. My warfares are often located in the early BC's.



Actually, serfdom can mean only 2/3 the usual amount of workers if you want to play it that way, and that could help growth. The food and hammers for the other 1/3 can go into settlers. Even more so for non-expansive leaders.

Indeed, a start lacking food won't help specialists recruiting under Caste System. Thus if Slavery is not efficient or barely and food doesn't allow heap of specialists, then Serfdom is a choice.

One final point. Getting vassalage early is also great. Can start to slow build up a well-promoted, good size army without dragging down the economy or whipping up a lot of unhappiness.

A side question: how do I get it to say immortal instead of chieftain under my name? I already listed my Civ IV level as Immortal. Am new to posting.

Then, I believe more in your theory if even IMM allows it. Indeed, most maps will see slavery/chops more powerful than that strategy based on the simple assumption: getting now is more powerful than waiting to finish the build via organic production. The earlier you get, the earlier you reap the benefits. But some suboptimal starts don't allow it and another path should be taken.

BTW, comments in blue in the quote.

 

[Manco Capac]

Here is a reference thread where I saw that strategy for the first time.

 

[Mylene]

Iam sorry, but i cannot imagine a situation where this would be useful
If you can build the Pyras without chops, slow expansion down very much i'd imagine, tech monarchy (all really terrible things if we just look at playing a map optimally)...just for longbows, how good would your situation be without dragging yourself down

 

[UnforcedError]

Iam sorry, but i cannot imagine a situation where this would be useful
If you can build the Pyras without chops, slow expansion down very much i'd imagine, tech monarchy (all really terrible things if we just look at playing a map optimally)...just for longbows, how good would your situation be without dragging yourself down

This is certainly what my intuition would suggest too. Oracling Feudalism if you want 1-2 early vassals is fine, but it takes an eternity to slow-build the Mids and grow an engineer, even as IND or PHIL. Some AIs may well have Feudalism by then so there would be no reason to waste the GE on bulbing it. Maybe in a non-tech-trade game? Or always war?

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

Fellas, I’ve gone ahead and posted a strategy article entitled THE BENFITS OF AVOIDING BRONZE WORKING about what I am trying to say here, since what I’m saying involves more than just Serfdom. Hope you enjoy it, whether you agree or not. As to your specific questions here:

It's based on the number of posts you have, not your skill level. I certainly don't play chieftan, for example.

That explains it!

I find your strategy very interesting. I've seen Oracling feudalism, but never bulbing it. It certainly seems suboptimal to aviod bronzeworking, but if it works on immortal with consitency, then it can't be too bad. I'd love to see a game like this.

If you got stone and aren’t itching to chop/whip or are itching to get to Feudalism, give it a shot. I’ll never Oracle without marble. And I’ve actually never Oracled Feudalism, although it sounds strong if you can do it. But that would be a marble start, not a stone start.

It's really refreshing to read about alternative strategies like this. Brennus, if you roll up a fitting start next time could you please post the game? I'd love to see how this works in practice.

Will do. I’ve had several of them, but haven’t been saving starts with the idea of sharing. Glad to do so next time though, although I haven’t been playing too many single player games of late. Playing a little here and there, it might take me a month to get through a single player game, and I’ll take the first map I get.

Anyway, I've given it some thought and I do have a few questions regarding this approach:
1. You'd have to build the Mids without chopping / whipping into it which means
-- multiple bare grassland hills / prod tiles (+ food) necessary (or do you work forested tiles too?)

First, it can be done with the pyramids or the hanging gardens, although the pyramids can definitely be completed sooner. Second, having some bare hills to mine is great, but I’ve found that if I 1) have stone, 2) feel safe enough to invest early production in a wonder, and 3) go straight for one of them, I’ll always get it, even if it means working some forested hills. Remember, you should be working a stone quarry. Cows and horse pastures are possible too.

multiple early happy resources necessary (or a very early Monarchy?)

No way. The fact that I’ll be getting monarchy means that my happiness issues already have a solution in the works. If need be, either switch from high food resources to lower production squares before you go over your happy cap, or just let some unhappy folks exist for a couple turns. You’ll be making them happy with Monarchy shortly.

it will still make the city building it unusable for anything else for a long time, so you will need at least 2 good food / hammer sites almost immediately to take over the early game production needs (and again, you cannot chop / bulb which will slow down your expansion in itself not just because you're building the Mids).

Other good sites are great if they are there. You can certainly get a settler out before starting the pyramids or the hanging gardens. Try to get that settler out before the stone quarry is on line.

I assume the ultimate goal is to get an early Feudalism AND have Rep / PS too, otherwise oracling Feudalism as Merovech suggested is definitely more cost effective and does not deprive you of BW.

If you get the pyramids then Republic is the natural choice most of the time, although Police State would certainly make sense sometime. If you use the Hanging Gardens then you’ll be rolling with Monarchy.

Yet another question: how do you proceed after getting the Mids and bulbing Feudalism?

Depends on the situation. The next move isn’t fixed. I can offer three general possibilities. 1) You’re not interested in an offensive war and thus want to go to Civil Service and continue up towards Liberalism. 2) you want to wage an offensive war with Macemen or Knights and then will try to build a forge in your wonder city and get out a second engineer for Machinery. Or 3) you can go an a devastating choking campaign, as you have already wisely suggested.

How many cities do you have at this point in general? (I guess the best idea is to go choke a neighboring AI with longbows while you're building up an army. In fact steal workers with your early archers and follow up with longbows. Do you use Guerilla promos?)

The number of cities can vary. Obviously the wonder build will slow down constant settler production. But if your first city or second city can block off a large chunk of land, then small is just fine for that early. Let those two grow first. You can do that for quite a while as you now have Monarchy. Settle the rest of the land later, maybe when the happy cap meets the health cap. If you want to gamble a little, you can try to build the stone wonder in a strategically placed second city. That will give both cities good cultural production to block off land (palace and wonder). That's probably more of a guaranteed play with the Hanging Gardens, since there is less of a risk of being beaten to it.

If you can build the Pyras without chops, slow expansion down very much i'd imagine, tech monarchy (all really terrible things if we just look at playing a map optimally)...just for longbows, how good would your situation be without dragging yourself down

Depends on the map, doesn’t it? I’m not advocating it for every game or even most of them. And also, you’re not just getting longbows. Feudalism unlocks Vassalage, Serfdom, Longbows, and access to Civil Service. Four significant things.

Some AIs may well have Feudalism by then so there would be no reason to waste the GE on bulbing it.

I’ve never seen an AI beat me to Feudalism this way. And since they want it and it's valuable, it can be traded.

Then, I believe more in your theory if even IMM allows it. Indeed, most maps will see slavery/chops more powerful than that strategy based on the simple assumption: getting now is more powerful than waiting to finish the build via organic production. The earlier you get, the earlier you reap the benefits. But some suboptimal starts don't allow it and another path should be taken.

Glad to at least have you on board!

Anyway, hope you guys check out and like my strategy article on this. Good times.

 

[Mylene]

Depends on the map, doesn’t it? I’m not advocating it for every game or even most of them. And also, you’re not just getting longbows. Feudalism unlocks Vassalage, Serfdom, Longbows, and access to Civil Service. Four significant things.

Err...just no
You are looking at benefits, and ignore all negatives.

1 easy example..Construction. You cheer for it being bulbable without BW.
What you seem to forget, if you'd actually make use of Rep. (with faster Pyras, get libraries, run scientists and not wait for GE only), you can be there rather quick. But you wait, and spend a nice GE on an inexpensive tech. You also cannot chop or whip, so you are very likely behind in setting your cities up for making use of Cats and Jumbos.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

Err...just no
You are looking at benefits, and ignore all negatives.

1 easy example..Construction. You cheer for it being bulbable without BW.
What you seem to forget, if you'd actually make use of Rep. (with faster Pyras, get libraries, run scientists and not wait for GE only), you can be there rather quick. But you wait, and spend a nice GE on an inexpensive tech. You also cannot chop or whip, so you are very likely behind in setting your cities up for making use of Cats and Jumbos.

I don't cheer for it. I suggest it as an option specifically with elephants. Feudalism is usually the stronger bulb and has twice the value. Sometimes rushing a wonder is best. Sometimes Bronze Working is best. Play fair. You did something similar before with your "just for longbows" comment too.

 

[Culture Bomb]

Heh, glad my question has brought about such a discussion, even if most of it is way above my level...

Anyway, I wonder if one time this might be useful is when you are isolated, so there is less pressure to get settlers out as quickly as possible before all the land is taken, so less need to whip and chop.

 

[UnforcedError]

...
Anyway, I wonder if one time this might be useful is when you are isolated, so there is less pressure to get settlers out as quickly as possible before all the land is taken, so less need to whip and chop.

Probably yes, but there is definitely no need to tech Feudalism in isolation. You're much better off getting to CS over CoL for Caste and courthouses.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

Heh, glad my question has brought about such a discussion, even if most of it is way above my level...

Anyway, I wonder if one time this might be useful is when you are isolated, so there is less pressure to get settlers out as quickly as possible before all the land is taken, so less need to whip and chop.

It depends. If you are quite happy alone on your continent, then you would do fine to avoid Bronze Working and go with Code of Laws / Civil Service as UnforcedError has suggested. I can imagine a lot of scenarios where that is the case. However, if you want to get off of your continent and sail into the ocean as soon as possible, you should be beelining/bulbing Optics. That involves going through Bronze Working, so Slavery and chopping are there for you to use. Remember, you don't have to slave and chop out settlers. You got lots of buildings on that line that can be built by slaves (granaries, lighthouses, forges, harbors, and some wonders: the Great Lighthouse and the Colossus).

Neither scenario really syncs with an early Feudalism bulb. If you got stone, build the Pyramids, and are fine alone, use the Great Engineer to rush the Great Library or something. If you got stone, build the Pyramids, and want to make contact with the world as soon as possible, use the first Great Engineer to bulb Machinery. If you avoid Mathematics, Meditation, and Polytheism, you can even use the second Great Engineer to bulb Optics. Then get your caravels out there, circumnavigate the globe, broker techs between the different continents that exist, and use your Great Merchant from the Great Lighthouse or Colossus to run an economy boosting trade mission. Good times.

Glad you enjoyed the Serfdom discussion. It was actually a very good question.

 

[Ben Lehman]

Can you post an example game of the no-bronze strategy?

 

[krikav]

I am a big fan of unorthodox openings. I play them myself all the time.
But this is something extraordinary... GEngi from pyramids to buld Feudalism?
Everything feels backwards!!
The main reason one builds pyramids in the first place is to benefit from representation.

But I would love to see a suitable map for this strategy, and try it out myself.
I would also like to play more normal strategies on the said map, and make comparisson.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

Can you post an example game of the no-bronze strategy?

Yes. Need to finish my Joao II game first. But I'll be happy to post a no-Bronze start after that.

 

[Manco Capac]

I am a big fan of unorthodox openings. I play them myself all the time.
But this is something extraordinary... GEngi from pyramids to buld Feudalism?
Everything feels backwards!!
The main reason one builds pyramids in the first place is to benefit from representation.

But I would love to see a suitable map for this strategy, and try it out myself.
I would also like to play more normal strategies on the said map, and make comparisson.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Rep and Vassage are different civic slots. I don't see what stop us to get Rep. The main problems are holding BW (Slavery and chops), then the tech (so-so tech bait).