SGFN-05: India Stomps the World

[Northen Wolf]

@Optional-w/new-name
Download last save, take a look at Aztec-Iro border, there are no units that can reach there and there is one vHoplite there. I'm not worried about WW, as if greece is dead, people have no-one to hate anymore and war to protest against.

@All
May I ask Portugal to 'remove or declare'. If they declare I can take 'em in few simple hits - I made battalion into 3 squadrons (not militarist here) and attack Greece from 3 different areas, one squadron is sitting outside of Portugal border.

If they pull out, then that's great.

@Overseer
thank you again, for info, But I don't think I can manage game w.o. iron sure I can hold out against enemy and if I do 20k culture win (that I was planning originally)... ~Censored ~ ..it is HARD.

 

[Hynsterider]

@Optional-w/new-name
I'm not worried about WW, as if greece is dead, people have no-one to hate anymore and war to protest against.

Right; got it.

@All

May I ask Portugal to 'remove or declare'. If they declare I can take 'em in few simple hits - I made battalion into 3 squadrons (not militarist here) and attack Greece from 3 different areas, one squadron is sitting outside of Portugal border.
If they pull out, then that's great.

If Portugal declares on us, our reputation is not at stake. Yes, I would try the 'move or declare' button. They might declare, as they're probably still furious with us for the towns we've taken from them. If we've still got some units around there, we're better off wiping out Portugal now.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I have played that one out and posted, so I'm morally obliged to not give anything away. However, I will say this. A 20k can be won with very little military. A meek little empire will suffice. Besides, a 20k tends to go well into the modern age, and who cares about horses when you have tanks? I think the lack of resources was a little extra challenge to make you think of alternate ways to succeed. You can also trade for resources. About our game, there is no rep hit if you demand they leave and they declare war. A fair bet... they are planning a sneak attack anyway. Go ahead, tell them to get lost. If they DoW, squash them like a bug!

 

[anaxagoras]

I should have eliminated Domination as a possible VC, but I didn't, so we'll have to be careful.

I'm glad you didn't. I like managing the balance between conquest and domination. It is an important game skill. By the way, this was a part - admittedly, a very small part - of my reasoning for razing some of the Babylonian towns. It was too early to really worry about domination, but it was in the back of my mind that in a conquest game, some razing is usually required.

 

[anaxagoras]

Anaxagoras suggested mopping up Portugal along the way. I'm not against that, but it would mean trashing our reputation; the 20 turns peace with them have only just started. If we are to sacrifice our reputation we should probably try and get more in return for it.

What what do we still need a reputation for? Once we get Military Tradition (which is 2 techs away), we don't really even care if we get another tech. We have enough luxes to keep our core happy. We have all the resources we need. We don't expect to even need to make peace for the rest of the way. I'm not sure what you are expecting our reputation to do for us at this point.

 

[anaxagoras]

@All
If Portugal declares on us, our reputation is not at stake. Yes, I would try the 'move or declare' button. They might declare, as they're probably still furious with us for the towns we've taken from them. If we've still got some units around there, we're better off wiping out Portugal now.

Hah, I need to read the whole thread before I reply. Yes, this is perfect. I would go so far as to taunt them unmercifully before giving them the "Move or Declare" ultimatum. ENCOURAGE them to declare. Not only does that solve the reputation problem, it gives us war happiness, too. It's the best possible outcome. Ask for all their cities and gold at least 15 times before you ask them to leave, and watch them shoot themselves in the foot by declaring on us.

 

[anaxagoras]

@Overseer
Thanks for info, I tried playing current 'predator' version, am in tech lead, area lead, almost finished up clearing iros on lone island.

Um, I hate to mention this, but one of the rules of the C/GOTMs are that you are not supposed to mention any specifics anywhere on the boards except in the associated spoiler threads. That's to keep sods like me, who are slow to play these things, from reading anything that might help.

You can talk about the games in general, but please don't get into specifics.

 

[Hynsterider]

What what do we still need a reputation for? Once we get Military Tradition (which is 2 techs away), we don't really even care if we get another tech. We have enough luxes to keep our core happy. We have all the resources we need. We don't expect to even need to make peace for the rest of the way. I'm not sure what you are expecting our reputation to do for us at this point.

I wasn't thinking in very specific terms about that, but perhaps it would still be useful to drag the Vikings in some kind of war. I believe a clean rep is needed to arrange an alliance? The Vikings have had a remarkably peaceful game sofar, and probably have been stockpiling units, so getting them on our side for a while would be useful. It would speed things up.
Another thing I was thinking about is perhaps buying a tech for gpt, and then attacking that civ the turn after, so we get the tech for free.
But I agree with you; we don't need to protect our rep like it's the dearest thing on earth, and we can switch research off completely once we have Military Tradition.

I would go so far as to taunt them unmercifully before giving them the "Move or Declare" ultimatum. Not only does that solve the reputation problem, it gives us war happiness too.

I'm with you, although no war happiness here; the counter will be reset to where it was when we last signed peace with Henry, and we had already built up some war weariness points then. Only Rodent will know how many.

I'd like to pop in with some ideas for variants, as I'm noticing The Overseer714 is already thinking about the next game:
*Wide Spacing Variant: No town can be put within 1-turn reach of a 1-turn unit over roads of another town.
*Atheism Variant: No Religious buildings. War must be declared on any Religious civ met.
*Wonder Pride Variant: Build or capture any AA and MA wonder that corresponds with your traits. That could be win condition as well.

Personally I wouldn't be a fan of a game that is very restrictive in strategy. So 20K or strict AW wouldn't appeal much to me.

 

[darski]

I'd like to pop in with some ideas for variants, as I'm noticing The Overseer714 is already thinking about the next game:

*Wide Spacing Variant: No town can be put within 1-turn reach of a 1-turn unit over roads of another town.

*Atheism Variant: No Religious buildings. War must be declared on any Religious civ met.

*Wonder Pride Variant: Build or capture any AA and MA wonder that corresponds with your traits. That could be win condition as well.
.

I love these variant suggestions. I might try a couple of them myself. could you perhaps PM me with more details for your Wide spacing variant. i am not sure how that would work.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I kind of like the wonder idea, only take it further: we must capture all wonders that we don't build ourselves within 50 turns of them being built, or at least by the end of the game. Maybe have Wonder victory as a possibility?

 

[Northen Wolf]

Rule #7: "The trading reputation is golden" say LKendter, and so it is. That means no deliberate act on the player's part that will cause the premature end of any deal involving gold per turn or resources from our side. Losing the "Trade Rep" has consequences that will affect the entire course of the game, and not for the better. Being unable, ever again, to buy tech for gold per turn or resources, or supplying resources for a lump sum payment, changes the dynamics of the game so much that what had been a game of building, diplomacy and warfare, becomes a game of war or rumors of war, unending. I can play that sort of game, at Deity, and win, but I don't like to; it takes way too many options off the table.

- Why to keep reputation.

I'll finish game today, by night.

I'd offer idea too: We(You) have to research every tech. by usselves, we may not trade for techs.

We may sell/gift our techs, but not buy/trade/ask for peace to get techs.

Our target is either cultural or space race. (not many SG's get done for these things).

Semi bad start. Something should be done so team would not wipe out AI's first then leave one around and win.

Like SGFN's have been training game (IIRC), that'd teach self reasearching.

 

[Rodent]

Well guys, remember that we need to win by Conquest, The Variant demands it.

 

[TheOverseer714]

We are brainstorming for the next go around, Rodent, I think this one is rapidly becoming a mop-up. To Northen, protecting reputation is a good habit for anyone playing the game. In SGFN04, we had to trade for all our tech, which any reputation issues would have made much more difficult. In this game, it doesn't matter as much. However, we might want to get our last target in a war with our next target to help soak up their offensive units. A clear reputation should allow such trades. A bad reputation would make such an alliance too expensive to be worthwhile. If you want to play and win at Emperor and above in your solo games, reputation and trading become more important. In any training type game, you teach best practices, and maintaining a clear reputation is best practice.

 

[anaxagoras]

I'm with you, although no war happiness here; the counter will be reset to where it was when we last signed peace with Henry, and we had already built up some war weariness points then.

I know that is true if WE declare on THEM. But if they are the ones doing the declaring, isn't our counter reset? I admit, I've never really been in position to check this out, so I don't know the answer.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I think the WW counter does not reset, at least in my experience. I have had instant WW when a bitter enemy resumes the war after a leave or declare ultimatum is given. In this case, the counter is pretty low and Portugal is pretty weak, which is good for us.

 

[Northen Wolf]

You'll get save and bad formatted turnlog tomorrow but for now:

Greeks are gone, we are at war with Aztecs and with Vikings.(India peacful citizens celebrate joy of giving peace to other nations in 1/3rd cities). Portugal still lives, obeys orders, has 1 city + 1 settler + archer IN our territory (was hiding in free spot.

We have 52.9% of land area - I said I'll keep it under 53%.
Our core is getting better, as more and more workers flow there.
Aztecs and Iros throw arrows at eachother - quite fun realy.

 

[Northen Wolf]

Spoiler For Turn log :

Lots has changed since I last took turns.

Military
2 Settlers
57 workers
--56 towns so roughly 1 worker per town (1,017857 workers per town)

1 warrior (uh?)
1 spearman
1 horseman

3 pikes
6 longbows
2 musketmen
5 galleys

1 army
38 Lovely Elephants
3 MI
23 trebs
11 ancient cavalry

Statistics
We, India, own:
41.4% of land area, 56 towns, total 685 tiles, we need 408 tiles more to win.
India has highest culture score, 2342, with +140 coming in each turn.
Second closest are Scandinavians with 1390culture and +44 cpt
Closely behind are Aztecs with 1313 cp and +24 cpt.

We are currently war with Greece.
We have 14 turns left peace with Portugal.

India is in feudalism.
Sliders are:
40% for tax
50% for science
10% to luxuries
India has 3990 gold and is making +82 gpt.

Luxury resources India has are:
Furs(2), Dyes(3), Spices(1), Elephants[ivory](4), Silks(2), Gems(3).
Total 6 different luxuries.

Strategic resource India controls:
Saltpeter(2), Iron(2), Horses(5).

There is a Greece hoplite, who can take our undefended town of New Punjab.

Sparta, Knossos, Thessalonica are in resistance.

Turn 0

Our palace gets a new wing.
Several specialists get assigned to work.
Drop luxury tax onto 0%
We now make +188 gpt
Change few towns w/ 100% not Indian citizens producing workers.
Several worker farms are made.

Press space.

IBT #0

Greece vHoplite captures New Punjab also loots 35 gold.
MAAAAAAAAAAAANY builds get done, forgot to note them, but at least 8 dumbos get built.
Athens 'calms down'.

Turn #1

vEle takes New Punjab back, Loses 2hp.
Hyderabad rushes courthouse for 2 pop.
vEle gets 25 gold for destroying barb encampment, he loses one hp tho.

Science slider is set onto 10%, chemistry in 1.


GREECE WAR
We capture a Greece worker.
eEle attack Mycenae defender-hoplite, redlines but wins.
eEle attacks myc. hoplite, loses hp but wins.
vAC kills unfort. hoplite, loses 2 hp and captures Mycenae.

Mycenae is size 6 town. We also captured 2 Greece workers, Mycenae has 4 resisting peons.

IBT #1
We learn chemistry ->Metallurgy.
Mycenae and Thesselonica are patcified.
4 workers are produced.
1 Ele is produced.
Lose galley to water gods.(suicide galleys).
2 settlers produced.

Turn #2
Rush barracks in Mycenae for 2 pop.(faster troop recovering + lower % to flip - less people willing to go against us
I find a small island. Looks like mountain only, but who knows.
Form a stack w/ healthy elephants in Greece.
Try to do something w/ workers.

IBT #2

Knight Templar creates a knight.
There is Aztec settler pair up north (from middle). Above New Jaipur.

Mycenae builds barracks.
Lose 2 galleys to sea.

Greece rLongbow attacks our vEle, redlines ele, but wise ele retreats to Mycenae.

Build one worker.

Turn #3

GREECE WAR
Mycenae units are almost all healthy (besides redline ele).

eEle(5/6) in Mycenae attacks Greece rLongbow, wins.

Front has roughly 18 war eles (I might miscount) 4 AC and 9 trebs+1cat


Move newly produced eles towards Aztec borders, fort them in border near towns.
Hyderabad produces war ele in 10 turns, It'll shorten when town grows.

Workers try to make more direct routes to Greek and Aztecs front.

IBT # 3
Sparta is calmed.
Calcutta goes into disorder.

2 settlers, 2 workers and 2 war eles have been produced
A Greece vKnight appears from viking area.
Aztec found town of Teyao above New Jaipur.

Turn #4

Find HUUUGE stack of Trebs, start moving them towards Aztecs, they move slow tho and have to do
circle, as they can't move on mountains/jungles.

Move vEle to defend town of New Ganges (vknight could get there in 3 turns).

Knossos fort. War eles start going towards aztec border.
Sparta whips settler for 2 lives. (Settler will be added to Athens, and there converented into workers, less people to do the flip)
and Athens is far enough from Greece area influance.

GREECE WAR
Stack #1 from Mycenae is moves next to Corinth (Greek).
Corinth is size 7 Greek capital.
eEle attacks rHoplite in size 7 town (fort).
Enemy trebu. fires at ele, but miss.
Ele loses 3 out of 6 Hps but wins.

eEle (5/6) attacks enemy rHop and makes perfect battle.
vEle attacks enemy rHop, rHop loses one hp our ele retreats on 1 hp.
vEle attacks enemy rhop(3/3), bolth redline, we lose, Enemy rHop is promoted to 2/4 vhop.

Greece rHop 2/3 is defending.
vEle attacks, loses 2 hp but wins.

Greece vHop(2/4) is defending.
vEle attacks, loses 2HP but wins

Corinth is ours
Corinth gives us 7 gold.
Corinth is size 6 town, with one resister.
We also capture one Greek treb.


Portugal.
Ask all gold(1) and gpt(16) from Portugal 20+ times, then say: "remove or declare" , they remove. Cowards.
Try to improve core.

IBT #4

All nations move into our territory. (not an attack tho)
Calcutta goes into disorder.
Sparta finishes settler (now It can start working on workers).
Knossos goes into disorder.
Greek Knight moves into fog near Molde(Viking town).


Turn #5
Move trebs towards Aztecs territory (not into).

GREECE WAR
Trebs near Greece border are ready to bomb delphi next turns.
eEle(5/6) attacks Greece rLongbow, we win.

Tell Portugal to Declare again, they pull out.

Tell Aztecs to pull out (their longbows are nearing several undefended cities and not towards Iros).
Aztecs declare and the crowds go wild!!!!!

Corinth (just captured Greek town) rushes barracks for 2 peoples, 4 left.

AZTEC FRONT:
vEle attacks rSpear on Tula, wins, loses 1hp
vAC attacks Aztec rLongbow on hill, AC redlines but wins.
vEle attacks rSpear on tula, we win - Tula is ours.
Tula is size 2, with one resister.

IBT #5
Greece knight moves from fog to
Several fights between iros and Aztecs, fights of Bow&Arrow.
Towns go into flames (happy flames), exept Knossos.
I had counted 'neutral persons' as happy persons in Knossos
*Goes to CF and download happy faces replacement for my civilization 3.*

Iros seem to be pulling out of our areas.

Turn #6
New Bangalore is found NW of New Jaipur.

By the time trebs reach Aztecs, their all dead ... but trebs keep going.

GREECE
eEle near molde (viking town) Attacks vKnight of Greece, we win, but lose 2 hp.

Trebutchet(I can't write this word, it seems) bomb Delphi 7 out of 9 hit, 2 can still hit.
eEle attacks Delphi hoplite(redlined), loses 1 hp but wins.
eEle attacks Delphi Hoplite(redlined) loses 3hp But wins.
eAC attacks Delphi Hoplite(guess in what state) wins, loses 2hp.

We captured Delphi, we gained 3 gold. Delphi is size 4 town with 7food per turn. Everyone are happy with
our lead.

AZTECS
vEle attacks vPike on malinalco, bolth redline but we lose. Enemy promotes.
vEle attacks vSpear on Malinalco, we win, lose 2 hp.
vHorse (yes horse) attacks Malinalco eSpike (2/5), redlines pike but dyes.
vEle attacks vSpear (on hill) perfect battle.


IBT #6
One more level of WW kicks in. 7 Workers get done. Several groups and lone workers reach core, where
they can be put work next turn.
Iros are moving back on our area.
Aztecs and iros fight using arrow vs arrow style.
Portugal galley moves around from Aztec lands towards Portugal capital area.
Portugal pulls its settler back.

Turn #7

Portugal still pulls out each time I say them to! Despite they should be mad as h3ll, due I am asking 20x all of their gpt, then say Remove or Declare.

GREEEKS
Treb and cat(greek) fire at town of Herakleia. Bolth hit, 2 rHoplites are wounded.

*Battle of Herakleia.*
eAC attacks and wins against Greek rhoplite (2/3)
eEle attacks and wins against rHoplite (2/3)
eEle attacks and wins but redlines (ONTO ONE LP), against rArcher on plain tile.

Heracleia is captured and 14 gold with it. Size 5 town w/ 1 resister.

Greece is left with one, size 3 city, if they don't plan to make a floating country.

AZTECS

Battle for Teayo (above New Jaipur).
vEle attacks rPike on Teayo ele redlines and retreats, pike stands at full health.
vAC attacks, loses 2 HP but Teayo is ours. Aztecs are broke.
Teayo, size one town, has 1 resister.

Battle for Malinalco.
eEle attacks ePike(3/6), wins, we lose 1 hp.
vEle attacks rArcher, we win, town of Malinalco is ours.
Size 2 w/ one resister. We also capture 6 slaves.

vEle attacks rSpear on plain tile, we lose 1 HP but win.

IBT #8
Aztec vs iro arrow match continues.
Aztec rArcher attacks our vEle (the one who beated rSpear on plain tile).
we Lose 1 hp, but win and promote to elite.

Uh, I think we got a problem, green galley just went east directly from lagos, (could it be an island?), they could have gotten astronomy and stayed on sea tile tho.

Turn #9
Portugal still pulls their troops back (and I was hoping to get double kill )
New Pune is founded near New Jaipur.
Just in case I am stacking few units as town defense near Iros borders too.
Units move towards new front, few are kept near Portugal only city.

More workers are moved to core area.

GREEK
*hopes that galley belonged to Aztecs or stayed on sea square.*
ARGOS
eEle attacks Argos rHoplite, we win lose 3 hp.
Same but we don't lose Hp.
Oh RNG gods, I'll sacrifice 5 towns to you if I get MGL!!!

Argos is captured. our glorious force frees 60 gold from their tyrannic, and now cold, hands.

Argos is size 2 with 2 happy persons.
Fledgling Greeks have been destroyed.

AZTECS.
vEle defeats rSpear.


IBT #9
Iros go towards Aztec area.
Vikings DEMAND horses, I refuse, they declare and the crowds go wild, again.
Heroic Epic has been completed (maybe Now next player can get MGL).

uuh crowds *literally* go wild, like every third city is celebrating, ain't indias supposed to be peace loving???


Turn #10
Portugal removes its troops.
Delhi 2 is founded.

VIKINGS
eEle defeats viking rWarrior. still no leader, grrr

Battle of Molde
eEle attacks rSpear on Molde.
We win, but lose 1 hp.

Aztecs
Battle for Tamuin.
vEle attacks *something* (can't remember what).

Spoiler for Picture :

Spoiler for Picture :

Short Contents:
Greece is gone.
Vikings declared on us.(demanded horses).
Aztecs declared on us. (Remove or Declare).

Iros and Aztecs are at war.
Portugal pulled it troops out every turn I told them to.
We've got 2-3 Aztecs Towns.
Core production has been increased by 3-4 shields in most towns(by irrigating and then using mountains, more needs to be done as I only had few workers in core at the start of my 10 turns), core has worker stacks ready to improve further.

Heroic Epic was built.

Sorry for bad turnlog and English, sorry if I insulted someone, that was not my intention.

 

[Rodent]

Looks good Northen

We were rather hoping to get the vikings Against the Aztecs, but well, We will have to fight them both.

 

[Hynsterider]

Well done, Northen Wolf! Or, if I would be speaking from my own geographical position: Southen Wolf! That's a pretty detailed turnlog as well; it captures well what has been going on. Only thing I'm perhaps missing in the last couple of turnlogs is when the AI researches a new tech, or what our trade position is.

1 warrior (uh?)

Not much wrong with having a warrior, I think. He can still do MP.

5 galleys

In my last turn I had only 1 galley, but already I didn't know what to do with it!

23 trebs

I have a feeling we haven't used our artillery to the full.

Knight Templar creates a knight.

That's a crusader!

Portugal.
Ask all gold(1) and gpt(16) from Portugal 20+ times, then say: "remove or declare" , they remove. Cowards.

Just before we had to declare war on Babylon there was actually a Bowman roaming through our territory, so I took the opportunity to insult Hammurabi, but his attitude towards us actually changed from 'annoyed' to 'cautious'; there was no way he was gonna declare on us. Sometimes you can't get an AI there.

Aztecs declare and the crowds go wild!!!!!

What happened to our former peaceloving attitude, where we would just sit in the temple and pray? Are we still Gandhi's India?

Uh, I think we got a problem, green galley just went east directly from lagos, (could it be an island?), they could have gotten astronomy and stayed on sea tile tho.

Since a bit later you got the message we destroyed the Greeks, this must have been the Aztecs. The Aztecs own the Great Lighthouse, so they don't need Astronomy to travel the sea. If there's an island out there, it's a sure bet they have found it. We must remember this one. Maybe save a few galleys for an expedition there once we've captured the Great Lighthouse.

Vikings DEMAND horses, I refuse, they declare and the crowds go wild, again.

Yeah, I think I would have liked to deny them horses as well. Although, perhaps we could have bribed them on our side after the Aztecs declared on us. We might not have had a tech on offer, but perhaps some money.
None of our opponants seems very tough though. Strategic resources seem scarce in that part of the world. Aztecs have saltpeter in their territory, but not hooked up yet (at least not in Rodent's last save). Vikings probably don't even have it in their territory. That's more reason to continue our focus on Aztecs right now. Maybe sign peace with Vikings after taking a couple of their towns closest to us and try to get them on our side?

I believe it's TheOverseer714 up next.

 

[Northen Wolf]

Or, if I would be speaking from my own geographical position: Southen Wolf!

uuuhm You are in Russia/North Pole or in Alaska??

About turnlog, I kinda skipped/flew thru that part, I'm usually doing longer turn logs (useful or not, CBob does them and he invited me to SG,s with myth01.)

In my last turn I had only 1 galley, but already I didn't know what to do with it!

I sacrifice few of them on 'suicide mission' to the Water Gods.

I have a feeling we haven't used our artillery to the full.

Well large stack of trebs is nearing Aztec border, they can be used, if they won't make in time, in Iro-India war. Other stack of ~12 or so is in Old-Greek territory. In my humble opinion (this sentence is not meant as an insult) Games w/ artillery are boring, Ai does not use them, why should I? Stack of 20 arties can take down a metro tho.

That's a crusader!

We don't have knights, we got elephants so for us he is a knight, at least in my point of view.

What happened to our former peaceloving attitude, where we would just sit in the temple and pray? Are we still Gandhi's India?

We have to bring peace and love to ALL world nations (ignore slavery, killing innocents and harsh cultural mindwash please). Once thats done we can get 1 ele in Every town to parade and pray in temples, once we get some.

Strategic resources seem scarce in that part of the world.

I was wondering, what you guys did with all resources, AI's are doing arrow vs arrow type fight, not a big challenge. ALL AI's are doing that, so they are no match to 2x stronger and 2x faster Eles.