SGFN-08: Random AWM Succession Game

[GamezRule]

Currently taking Geometry

 

[TheOverseer714]

Do you want a skip or swap?

 

[GamezRule]

Sorry, forgot about this game, can I skip. School sucks, and my "summer" job ended up starting early, so I have no Civ time.

EDIT: RL Sucks

 

[Sparthage]

A roster update:
1: Overseer =>Just Played
2: GamezRule =>Skipped
3: Lanzelot =>UP
4: Splunge =>On Deck
5: Sparthage =>Polishing his spear
6: DWetzel

 

[splunge the 2nd]

I'm in the on deck circle.

 

[Lanzelot]

Ok, I got it and I think I can play tomorrow.

Let me sum up what we discussed so far:

• Continue working on the Dutch and hopefully breaking the resistance for good now.
• Work towards the chokepoint and occupy it. Try establishing a "killing zone" for the incoming Greek and Persian units (using cats and archers).
• Meanwhile get the necessary second settler for connecting the horses, and then the core switches from archer production to horsemen production. Non-barracks towns can produce 1-2 more galleys and of course catapults.
• Finish Monarchy and revolt at the appropriate moment. (The earlier the better, because that wil reduce our anarchy period.)

There are still two big open questions on which I need some input until tomorrow:

• Hamburg is going to complete its current project next turn. I would like to switch it to the FP now in order to get those shields into the FP already. I think we can spare Hamburg's production for now. (In fact, I don't want to build too many archers now, because unit upkeep will be a bit tight after our Monarchy switch until we get more towns online. So we should not overproduce archers now. Rather wait a bit and then produce horsemen instead of archers.
• Prepare naval invasion of Scandinavia or of Greece? Scandinavia looks weak to me (small tundra island?!). But not sure what that means... It is at the same time an argument pro and contra invading them: the pro-argument is "they are weak, so we can take them over quickly and then we'll have iron". The contra-argument is: "they are weak, so we can ignore them for the moment and concentrate on the more dangerous Greeks first"...
  My stomach tells me to go for the Greeks first, because they look like they have the potential for becoming quite strong soon. (Already completed a Wonder, their land looks good and they have hoplites.) So I would try to follow DWetzels idea, take the great wall in Athens and then capture the rest of the towns. The advantages are:
  • We will have the good lands sooner (and perhaps they also have iron?!) The Scandinavian land looks poor and will not be valuable for us.
  • We hit them before they get stronger still
  • And I have different plans for the Scandinavians... In the near future they will help us with one of my crazy plans, so we need to keep them alive for now... Invention is still a very long way to go, so please everybody don't worry about Berzerks at this point of time...
  But I'm really not sure about all this. If someone has good arguments for going to Scandinavia first, I'm ready for that as well.

 

[Sparthage]

I agree with everything except for capturing Athens. I believe that we decided to burn it to the ground instead.

 

[Lanzelot]

I agree with everything except for capturing Athens. I believe that we decided to burn it to the ground instead.

When I wrote the I want to take the great wall in Athens, that does not necessarily mean I want to keep it.
However, we don't need to decide that yet. Still time for that, if and when we actually manage to achieve that That will still be a long time ahead, and we can then still assess the relative culture, the number of offensive units the Greeks have close by at the time, etc. Would be a shame to burn that precious wonder, just because we decided to do so some 50 turns ago, when it is actually easily possible to keep it...

 

[GamezRule]

Will the Great Wall trigger our golden age?

 

[DWetzel]

Will the Great Wall trigger our golden age?

Capturing it wouldn't. If we have wonders that fit both our traits (Sci/Mil), which we would when we possess the Great Wall (along with the GLib), then the next wonder we BUILD will trigger it. The check is basically...

1. Did you just build a wonder? If no, then stop.
2. Do you now have wonders in your possession which fit both your traits? If no, then stop.
3. Have you already had a golden age? If yes, then stop.

If you get through all three steps, then you trigger your GA.

Which could be a very good thing, really.

 

[splunge the 2nd]

I took a look at the save and only have a minor MM point that you prob saw- in Hamburg they're working the forest. If you move it to a different tile (I think it was mined grass) you grow a turn earlier and finish the cat on time.

 

[Lanzelot]

I took a look at the save and only have a minor MM point that you prob saw- in Hamburg they're working the forest. If you move it to a different tile (I think it was mined grass) you grow a turn earlier and finish the cat on time.

See post #507...

Anyway, no one had different ideas regarding FP and regarding whether to attack Greece first or Scandinavia. I'll switch to FP now and try to remain flexible as to the next target. (The offensive will most like not begin in the next 2-3 turnsets anyway.)

 

[Lanzelot]

I played up to and including turn 7. I need to stop now for an important question. See the end of the turn log.

Spoiler :

Preturn:
Give the irrigated wheat from Leipzig to Hamburg. Switch Hamburg to FP. Reduce science.
Switch Frankfurt from coast to whale tile. Galley will finish one turn faster now.

The 2/3 Greek archer may attack our 3/5 archer on plain next turn. I kill that archer with one of our archers from the stack. It is exposed now, but rather loose a vet than an elite. Next archer kills a Persian warrior on the swamp tile and promotes to elite (5/5)! Final archer kills the remaining swamp warrior and promotes as well (3/5). Now the spearman on the wines hill is no longer necessary and can move to the swamp in order to protect the archer there in case the 1/4 Immortal attacks it.

I was thinking very long, whether or not I should attack the Scandinavian 2/3 galley with our 4/4 galleys. But in the end I decided against it. This could well be the only Scandinavian galley, and I don't won't to stop the Scandinavians from sending cheap units to us...

IBT: The Scandinavians unload a swordsman next to Frankfurt. That's not exactly my idea of a cheap unit and also it's not their usual landing zone!! Who said they shall unload their units on a forest now?
Three Dutch archers appear out of Utrecht, The Hague and Eindhoven. The Greek archer kills our archer on the Dutch wine hill.
Two more Persian archer appear at Eindhoven.

Monarchy comes in. Set research to 0% again. The AIs will certainly provide us with the last remaining AA tech (Currency) soon. Don't revolt yet, because I still want that settler from Leipzig (horses!) and the archer from Berlin (in case the two available archers at Frankfurt are not enough to deal with the swordsman).
Leipzig grows, but the shield on growth is eaten up by corruption.

Turn 1 130BC: catapult bombards Viking swordsman, an archer kills it, but goes down to 1/4. Kill three archers (one each of the Dutch, Greeks and Persians) and the Immortal. Three attacks were elite (one surviving by a hair 1/5), but no leader. Move units into place. Switch Stuttgart from barracks to catapult.
Rearrange some units, so that Königsberg, Leipzig and Hamburg don't riot even at 0% lux.

Turn 2 110BC: Kill 3 more units at no losses. 4 Greek units become visible.
Now I thought for half an hour: revolt or not revolt? A very difficult question, because in Monarchy we would currently pay 22gpt unit upkeep, compared to 0gpt in Despotism. In the end I saved the game, went to bed and slept it over. After a good night's thought, I made my mind up: let the party begin...!
I think the following reasons outweigh the 22gpt we'll have to pay for a short period:

• I said a while ago, that the corruption-reduction of Monarchy would not be enough to make Leipzig a 4-turner again. This is correct. But the extra food we get out of the two wheat tiles would! Because then Leipzig could work the hill tile permanently and still have +5food. And the mine on the hill is about to finish soon, giving 3 shields in Monrachy (only two in Despotism). Overseer, that was a very smart move of you to start a mine on that hill during your turnset! At first, when I opened the game, I thought, "why is he making a mine there? There are still many unimproved grasslands." But now everything falls into place: the extra food, the extra shields, and then Leipzig should finally become a pretty maintenance-free 4-turner.
• There are quite a couple of other food resources, that would give extra growth under Monarchy: two sugar tiles, two fish, two whales (with harbor) and the plain wine at Amsterdam.
• Consequently we would get a number of towns to size 7 soon. Several more towns will be online soon, so I expect we won't pay the unit upkeep for long. It should be down to 0gpt by the time we start our own research again. (Which I think should be after we get Currency and our free MA tech. Then we should make a quick dash to Invention and upgrade our archers & catapults.)
• Anarchy at this point would prevent a couple of archers from being produced. During anarchy we can hook up the horses, and then when order is restored again, produce horsemen instead of archers. This is good, especially in lieu of our reduced number of free units.

Revolution begins... And of course we get 6 turns of anarchy!!

IBT: Vikings start the Mausoleum. They will really be no threat for us...
The Greeks kill one vet archer.

Turn 3 90BC: Kill Greek archer and warrior. Switch Nürnberg from galley to Library.

IBT: 4 more Persian units arrive at Amsterdam, among them one Immortal.
We learn the Republic from the Greeks and the Aztecs. (Hmm, is this a sign from the civ gods? who knows what I'll do at the end of our anarchy... )

Turn 4 70BC: Bombard and kill Greek archer and warrior. Two elite wins, but still no leader. Retreat units from the Persian stack. If they follow us, they'll meet our catapults next turn...
Our southern curragh reaches the Persian continent and turns around to explore the other side of the Russian continent. The Babylonians must still be somewhere (they own the Oracle), and they are most probably to be found there.

IBT: The Persians follow us north.

Turn 5 50BC: Three catapults miss, only one takes a hitpoint of the Immortal!! Well, I need to attack anyway, as we can't retreat. Vet archer makes Immortal 1/3, but looses. Now the Immortal is "covered" by a 3/3 warrior. I risk a 3/5 archer and attack that warrior: wins 2/5. Vet archer now kills the Immortal, but goes down to 1/4! Another Persian warrior becomes visible. Cover our archer with an elite spear.

IBT: Another Persian archer and vet Immortal arrive. These guys really mean it. 5 turns have now already passed, and I still didn't manage to fire a single shot on Eindhoven!

Turn 6 30BC: Kill a Persian warrior and archer, get one promotion (3/5).
Not that it would matter much at the moment, but before I forget: switch Amsterdam from warrior to barracks. We'll need a place for upgrading our cats & archers later.
Found Salzburg. Horses now connected. Salzburg starts catapult. Switch Berlin and Köln to horseman.

IBT: Scandinavia wants peace. The Aztecs start the Temple of Artemis.

Turn 7 10BC: Kill Persian archer, warrior and Immortal. Two elite wins, one promotion. No more Persian units to be seen!

IBT: The Netherlands want peace. They are willing to give three towns for it! I don't know the rules: is it allowed to make peace, take the towns and then immediately redeclare? I'll save the game and stop for now, until someone can answer that question for me.
Anarchy is over. I'm very tempted to choose "Republic" from the dropdown list, I almost need to physically force my hand over to the "Monarchy" button and click that... But you are probably right: with that many contacts we would be in war-weariness pretty soon. If we really wanted Republic for a while, we shouldn't have explored.
A Persian warrior and Immortal arrive at Eindhoven. Will this never stop?

So the basic question now is: is it allowed to make peace, take the towns and then immediately redeclare?
It would spoil our reputation, but I think we don't care...

 

[Bucephalus]

lurker's comment:

It's your game, so you make your own rules, but I've never known it allowed in an AW game.

 

[vmxa]

Lurker's comment:

You are not playing AW, if you make peace. Maybe AAW, Almost Always War.

 

[splunge the 2nd]

All war, all the time. (no matter how much it hurts, sigh)

 

[TheOverseer714]

Yep, no peace, ever. It wouldn't be true AW, otherwise. As far as the stream of Persians went, that was their initial surge, it should turn into an immo or 2 each turn. The good news is that the greeks will be dancing with persia as to who gets to us first, slowing the flow of enemy units.

 

[Lanzelot]

Ok, here is the rest:

Spoiler :

IBT: Forget to mention: the Vikings unload a swordsman next to Heidelberg.
Ok, the consensus seems to be no temporary peace, so I have to decline the very tempting Dutch offer...

Turn 8 10AD: Elite archer kills Immortal, wins outright 5/5 and --- Barbarossa appears on the battlefield! I got a leader in the ancient age, can't believe it! Just a couple of days ago I wrote this:
"I can't remember if after 9 years of playing Civ3 I ever got an AA leader -- not counting scenarios like Rise Of Rome. I usually don't get leaders until the IA, when the game is over anyway..." ...

In order to meet the threat to Heidelberg, I have to move a spear from Stuttgart and a warrior from Leipzig into Heidelberg, as there are no archers within reach. (Good that we disbanded Heidelberg and relocated it within distance 3 of two other towns, otherwise it would be lost now...) Move a catapult and the two northers archers so that they can strike at the swordsman next turn.

After we are a Monarchy now, I check all towns and rearrange the citizens a bit. During the last turn of Despotism, we were having a total income of 79g, which after deducting all expenses and corruption resulted in a net income of 49gpt. Now with Monarchy the total income is 103g, and after subtracting all expenses, corruption and the unit upkeep of 18gpt (we lost two units and built another town during anarchy, so from 22gpt we are down to 18gpt) we still have a net income of 51gpt! The reduction of corruption was better than expected. Add the extra food to that, and Monarchy really pays off!

Unfortunately, because of the rearrangement of units in order to protect Heidelberg, I have to temporarily set lux to 10%, reducing the net income to 44gpt. But I should be able to set it to 0% again next turn.

I change the galley in Frankfurt to an aqueduct. That town makes 4fpt now, thanks to the two whale tiles, and it already has a library. So we should let it grow now and make it a good research site.

IBT: The Viking kills spearman in Heidelberg and goes down to 2/3. The Persians offer peace in return for Literature. No thanks...
Hannover cat -> harbor.
The Greeks start Temple of Artemis.

Turn 9 30AD: Catapult hits Scandinavian swordsman 1/3. 4/4 archer attacks and promotes the swordsman back to 2/4!!!! Second archer finally defeats the swordsman.
Barbarossa reaches Amsterdam and forms the first German Army. I'll let the team decide what to put into it. Overseer suggested a spearmen Army for pillaging the Persian iron. I favor a horsemen Army to help in the capture of Athens.
Three catapults hit Eindhoven, one misses. We know now that Eindhoven is protected by three 2/3 spearmen. I have only 2 archers at hand (one elite* and one elite), whith 3 more arriving this turn, but I think getting three hits in a row is quite unlikely to achieve again, therefore I decide to attack with the two archers in the hope of killing at least one defender. The 4 cats should then have a better chance of hitting every defender again.
Barbarossa* attacks and wins 1/5. The other one attacks and wins 3/5. This goes better than expected.
Rearrange some military police and set lux back to 0%.

IBT: The Greeks land a horseman at Amsterdam! Hey, that was our idea! An Aztecan galley appears at Königsberg. Two Persian Immortals and a Greek archer arrive at Eindhoven. And I thought I could finally take that town undisturbedly...
Nürnberg finishes Library thanks to a well timed chop. Starts catapult.
Königsberg cat -> cat.
Tenochtitlan completes Statue of Zeus. Glad they are so far away! They start Great Lighthouse next.

Turn 10 50AD: Two cats hit Dutch galley at Königsberg, our galley sinks it (1/4!). Don't want anymore surprises at Heidelberg. (Seems to be the preferred landing site for everyone now: first the Vikings, and now the Dutch and Aztecs are clearly heading there as well.)
Elite archer throws Greek horse back into the sea. No Troja here...
Kill another Persian warrior. Our 4 cats then red-line the two Immortals (1/3). Our final archer takes out the Greek archer. So much of capturing Eindhoven. But I simply couldn't leave those units alive, they would either have taken Eindhoven next turn, or our cats or taken a severe bite out of our elite archers...

Handover notes:

• All the archers need to retreat from Eindhoven and heal, before we can start another attempt. Meanwhile already two more Immortals and two archers are approaching Eindhoven. Well, we'll have a larger force down there soon.
• Important: almost all towns need a bit of Micromanagement next turn!
• I parked the Army outside Amsterdam for the moment. (Didn't want it inside in case of a flip.) After the team decides what to do with it, we can either march it down to the Persian iron or march it north to get ready for D-Day in Greece. (Don't fill any units inside it in that case! We only have galleys for transport.)
• The Viking galley down at Rotterdam is empty.

And remember: Scandinavia is still lacking Math, Polytheism, Currency, Construction, Feudalism, Engineering and Invention, so don't worry...

Good luck to the next player!

 

[TheOverseer714]

I like a horse army right now, as a spear army would take too long to get to Persia to do any good. We need to get progress somehow, and an army might do that. We should load one horse in for mobility, as empty armies are painfully slow. Load 2 more after the voyage, and remember, 1 defense armies will be attacked, so always have a spear or 2 as cover in hostile areas.

 

[DWetzel]

Random thoughts:

Amsterdam's flip risk is very small; parking two units in it would reduce said risk to zero (according to CA2). Don't know if we can spare that, or if we should. More amusingly, Utrecht has a roughly 2% chance of flipping to us, which would be nice.

Yay for getting an MGL and getting through our revolt. I actually kind of like the idea of a spear army, since spear army + horses are both move 2, which is handy. If we do go with a horse army, it would almost be better used to assault the incoming stream of units, freeing up our main attack force (cats + spears + horses, though archers work about as well in this situation) to go roaming off to Greece or Persia.

Remember, the Persians got a GA by killing our explorer unit, and the units that they started during that should be the ones arriving over the last turnset. Unfortunately, we probably have another 10 turns or so of seeing their stream of units due to enhanced production (if my math is right, it may not be).

Rather than a large quantity of settlers, I think Leipzig would be better placed to produce 2-turn workers to bring our other cities up to size 7 as soon as possible. (Obviously, we need a FEW settlers to replace the Dutch lands, but my guess is that we won't have a big breakout through the chokepoint any time soon, so getting larger and more productive cities should be a priority IMO.)

We should be able to take Eindhoven soon enough. I can then see a period of just holding ground there while our newly produced units take out the remaining Dutch towns.