SGFN-08: Random AWM Succession Game

[Sparthage]

QUESTIONS

1. Who are we planning on attacking with our naval group?
2. Why do we Barbarossa at the front lines?
3. There is a settler available. Where is he going?
4. I presume the workers nearby are to clear the Marshes.
5. I can MM Invention to 10 turns instead of 13 (after changing the rate to 80 sci/10 ent), but it stagnates growth in 5 cities and causes 2 turns to be lost in the production of the FP in Hamburg. Should I go ahead and do it?
6. How many turns until I can take Utrecht?
7. What Science/Entertainment rate is best?

Don't kill me for any of these. Please.

 

[Lanzelot]

lurker's comment: Yes, but by the time you have trebs, you're in the middle age. I think you should really be using pikemen for the comparison.

No one except us has Feudalism, yet. It'll be a while, before we see pikes at the killing zone. But you are right: we'll meet Hoplites soon, and these are like pikes.
But anyway, if we compare based on pikes instead of spears, then the comparison between cats and trebs becomes even more favorable for the treb: 57% vs 67%. So an increase of 10% points instead of only 8% points (67% vs 75% in the spear case)...

 

[Lanzelot]

QUESTIONS

1. Who are we planning on attacking with our naval group?
2. Why do we Barbarossa at the front lines?
3. There is a settler available. Where is he going?
4. I presume the workers nearby are to clear the Marshes.
5. I can MM Invention to 10 turns instead of 13 (after changing the rate to 80 sci/10 ent), but it stagnates growth in 5 cities and causes 2 turns to be lost in the production of the FP in Hamburg. Should I go ahead and do it?
6. How many turns until I can take Utrecht?
7. What Science/Entertainment rate is best?

Don't kill me for any of these. Please.

1. Greece!
2. No idea. Move him up to Berlin. We certainly don't want to use him while he is size 1. (First attack must be a sure victory!!) And we certainly don't want to bring him to size 3, before we've shipped him over to Greece.
3. Resettle the ruins 2S.
4. Yep. Set up the choke as described in post #565
5. No. Food is more important. It will bring the research time down automatically. For now set research to 40% (or even lower, anybody?), until Berlin finishes the library. Then back to 90%.
6. 10
7. 40%/10% for now.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Sounds about right to me.

 

[Sparthage]

1. Greece!

Athens will burn then.

2. No idea. Move him up to Berlin. We certainly don't want to use him while he is size 1. (First attack must be a sure victory!!) And we certainly don't want to bring him to size 3, before we've shipped him over to Greece.

What? We shouldn't attack a vet Hoplite on a mountain?

3. Resettle the ruins 2S.

That's what I thought.

4. Yep. Set up the choke as described in post #565

Actually, I meant the workers near the settler. I figured out that we needed to clear the Marshes down south anyways.

5. No. Food is more important. It will bring the research time down automatically. For now set research to 40% (or even lower, anybody?), until Berlin finishes the library. Then back to 90%.

Fine. It was just a note. After all, I don't think that several pop points are worth it either.

6. 10

Well, it'll be a nice way to end my set.

7. 40%/10% for now.

Alrighty then, moving on.

I plan on playing tomorrow after school. Any objections?

 

[splunge the 2nd]

QUESTIONS

1. Who are we planning on attacking with our naval group?
2. Why do we Barbarossa at the front lines?
3. There is a settler available. Where is he going?
4. I presume the workers nearby are to clear the Marshes.
5. I can MM Invention to 10 turns instead of 13 (after changing the rate to 80 sci/10 ent), but it stagnates growth in 5 cities and causes 2 turns to be lost in the production of the FP in Hamburg. Should I go ahead and do it?
6. How many turns until I can take Utrecht?
7. What Science/Entertainment rate is best?

Don't kill me for any of these. Please.

1 Greece was the plan. We can't ahndel more, but I'd like Vikings weakened before they get "zerks
2 I included him in the attack at the Hague (didn't need to use him) which was probably a poor idea.
3 I was thinking near the ruins of the HAgue (as was stated earlier)
4 Those stacked with the spear army yes, others are just to help road to the lower cities and improve. Pity there's no rivers down there for irrigation.
6 Utrecht became the capital the last turn of my turn set. Folks have said it'll take 10 turns of culture to avoid the auto raze, so the last turn of your turnset.

Sorry for redundancies, but wanted to reply myself.

 

[Sparthage]

Seeing no objections I will play.

Turn Log

Spoiler :

Pre-game-Lower science to 40%, +1 gpt
IBT- Dutch Archer attacks 4/5 Horse on hill. The horse loses 1 HP, archer killed.
Vikings are building the Temple of Artemis.
Greeks move hoplite to the mountain
Frankfurt: Barracks=> Horseman
Eindhoven: Spear=> Spear
Turn 1 (260 AD)- Pull Barbarossa back to Berlin
Workers begin to clear marsh, fortify spearman army.
Trebuchets bombard a regular Immortal (100% Efficiency!)
Elite Archer (-2) kills Reg Immortal (-1)
All five catapults miss Utrect!
IBT- Aztecs move a galley into our territory.
Greeks abandon the mountain, avoid the spear army.
Russians request an audience.
Turn 2 (270 AD)-Heidelburg: Horse=> Horse
Rotterdam: Galley=> Horse
Bombard a Greek Horseman (100% efficient)
Veteran Archer (-) kills Reg Horseman (-1)
Catapults bombard Utrecht (80%)
IBT- Vet Immortal (-1) kills vet Spear (-4)
Elite* Archer (-2) kills vet Horse (-3)
Vet Horse (-1) kills Elite* Archer (-3)
Reg Horse (-2) kills Vet Archer (-4)
Turn 3 (280 AD)-Konigsberg: Trebuchet=> Galley
Bombard Aztec Galley (66%)
Our Veteran Galley (-2) kills Aztec Veteran Galley (-2). Vet Galley Promoted to Elite.

And that's where I leave off for now. More later.

 

[DWetzel]

Why are we bothering to bomb Utrecht when we're 8 turns from capturing it? I'd much rather move the bombardment units + other units to where they are more urgently needed. We'll clean up Utrecht with a couple of newly created units from our core easily enough, won't we?

 

[splunge the 2nd]

Want to pillage by Utrecht to avoid an extra defender? Working the city core and a mined dessert should give 3 SPT (I should have done it my turnset)

 

[DWetzel]

Want to pillage by Utrecht to avoid an extra defender? Working the city core and a mined dessert should give 3 SPT (I should have done it my turnset)

An unmined hill will give 2 spt, which will mean a defender anyway, so i wouldn't worry about it.

Really, the limiting factor is the population, since they'll rush a spear whenever they hit size 2. I'd probably pillage, but I doubt it matters a whit in the long run.

 

[GamezRule]

Just out of curiosity, I have been AFK for the last couple days, why didn't we go after the Vikes now and wait until Pikes and Immortals our more outdated to go after Greece and Persia.

 

[Lanzelot]

Just out of curiosity, I have been AFK for the last couple days, why didn't we go after the Vikes now and wait until Pikes and Immortals our more outdated to go after Greece and Persia.

From a strategic point of view: the Greeks have a lot of space and apparently very good land, so they have the potential to get very strong quickly. The Vikings have just a small number of useless tundra towns. They will advance very slowly and not be any danger for a long time.
And second: our own land is very small. As long as we don't have more and better land, every war will be a tough fight. The sooner we are able to take over Greece, the sooner we can start building up our infrastructure there, and the sooner we get really powerful.

And finally I want to keep the Vikings alive for as long as possible, because they are the only civ that is likely to keep landing a small but continuous stream of units close to Berlin. (The others are too far away and may or may not occasionally land a unit or two.) For now we will just kill these units. But when the time is ripe, the Vikings will do us two very big favors:

• help us relocating our capital to Athens for free
• take good care of our Great Library for a while in order to prevent it going obsolete too early. This can potentially save us ten-thousands of gold in research.

All this requires very delicate planning, and it may turn out to be impossible, but we should at least try and work towards this desirable goal.

 

[splunge the 2nd]

Lanzelot, I thought we were planing to raze Athens to avoid the culture flip, no? You're anticipating letting the Vikings take Berlin, flip the capital to Athens and before the Vikings learn education, retake Berlin for a GL slingshot-Wow! I've been thinking too small.

 

[Sparthage]

Yeah, we were planning on burning Athens because of the flip risk, with the Great Wall and Hoplites, taking every town will require going 2 Attack vs. 5.5(?) Defense until we get a stream of Longbows.

 

[Lanzelot]

Lanzelot, I thought we were planing to raze Athens to avoid the culture flip, no? You're anticipating letting the Vikings take Berlin, flip the capital to Athens and before the Vikings learn education, retake Berlin for a GL slingshot-Wow! I've been thinking too small.

Yeah, we were planning on burning Athens because of the flip risk, with the Great Wall and Hoplites, taking every town will require going 2 Attack vs. 5.5(?) Defense until we get a stream of Longbows.

See my post #528. We don't know yet whether there is any flip risk, so why should we already decide now to burn Athens? We have the GLib and a couple of libraries, so I think we are doing ok culture-wise. (In fact, I think we are currently the leader on culture points?!) No need to make any rush decisions.

splunge: yes, that's the plan. Except: it does not matter whether the Vikings learn Education or not, as long as we don't learn it. So in order for this to work, the Vikings need to take Berlin, before two civs learn Education. (Otherwise we would get it from the GLib next turn, and then the GLib expires for us.) Then we just wait until we see two civs having rails or two civs starting Universal Sufferage or some other indications that at least two civs have reached the Industrial Age. It doesn't matter, whether the Vikings learn Education by then, it will only expire the GLib for them, not for us. Then we retake Berlin and immediately jump into the Industrial Age.
If that plan works, all we need to research during the Middle Ages is Military Tradition. The rest of the gold can then be spent on upgrading cats to trebs... (And of course on rushing markets, libraries, barracks in Greece.)

 

[IvanDolvich2]

lurker's comment: Lanzelot: Its nice to dream big. I think it would be great if you can pull off the Palace jump, GLib slingshot and manage this AWM game. I'd say go for it if you can. Never hurts to try if the opportunity presents itself. he he

 

[Sparthage]

If we ever do that, a key objective should be keeping the city defenses low. It'd suck if we had to kill 8+ units to retake our own capital.

 

[del62]

Lurker's comment

Looking at the game, I'd be suprised if you need to give away Great Library, far better self research once it expires, this is Monarch not Deity, and is it really wise to let those Vikes have their Berserks so easily.

 

[Lanzelot]

Lurker's comment

Looking at the game, I'd be suprised if you need to give away Great Library, far better self research once it expires, this is Monarch not Deity, and is it really wise to let those Vikes have their Berserks so easily.

In the beginning I thought so, too. But I was told that in AlwaysWar and us being Monarchy instead of Republic it would be hard to out-research the AI, even on Monarch level.
Anyway, the GLib elevator is only a "side-effect" of the plan. Doesn't matter if it doesn't give that many techs. The main objective is the free Palace Jump.

Berzerks? If we leave them with a tundra town for capital and Berlin, I'm not worried. The AI isn't using them that effectively.

 

[GamezRule]

Can we cut off all the tiles around Berlin so the Vikes can't get any production from them?