SGFN-08: Random AWM Succession Game

[DWetzel]

Remind me, what does Athens have that we want (other than a chance to break Greece?)

By the way, I often read the forums at work with the game not available so sorry if some questions can be easily answered by looking at the save.

Great Wall's there--so if we attack Greece it makes a lot of sense to start there.

Without looking at the save, I would say that IF we can beeline to MT (and Cavs) inside our GA, or just outside it, we should do that. Cavs would obviously be a rather large upgrade over longbows and horses.

 

[splunge the 2nd]

If we're 2 techs from metalurgy, is it worth waiting to tackle greece till after they get it and lose the benefit from the Great Wall. If we take Athens close to metallurgy or after, it'd make more sense to raze. I don't know if they have any other wonders there.

 

[GamezRule]

Also, our cities are getting up there in size, and we may want to consider building a couple temples to keep from having to adjust the slider until we have more luxuries hooked up.

 

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment: Knights Templar and salt on successive turns You guys were due a break

lurker's comment: I entirely agree. This one's been a slog for you guys so far. It was about time you guys had something go your way.

Remind me, what does Athens have that we want (other than a chance to break Greece?) . . . .

Isn't that enough?

 

[GamezRule]

I am more worried about Persia right now. I saw a total of about 8 Greek unit's over my turnset, and about 20 Persian unit's.

 

[Lanzelot]

In addition to what was already said in the previous posts, I'll try to do the following:

Ok, Military Tradition is approx 5000 beakers away. We need some more libraries to get this done, Hamburg, Köln, Hannover and perhaps Königsberg and Heidelberg.
Oh no, Hamburg has already 42 shields collected, that means we would waste 23 if we switch to a library now. Guess I'll build a market first then. These are better than temples. (We don't wont Leo's, do we? I'd rather let the AI build it for us.)

Frankfurt can build the Academy after HE, so I will sell the barracks there.

We have enough galleys for now, so I switch some to trebuchets.

We need more towns to ease our unit support, but Dutch Treat, Woodstock and Nuremberg are messing up the ICS pattern quite a bit. We could fit 5 extra towns into our available space, if I disband and relocate Dutch Treat, Woodstock, Nuremberg and Groningen. Not prio 1, but we should do it in the long run.

If you have no objections, I'll try to play tomorrow.

Lanzelot

 

[DWetzel]

In addition to what was already said in the previous posts, I'll try to do the following:

Ok, Military Tradition is approx 5000 beakers away. We need some more libraries to get this done, Hamburg, Köln, Hannover and perhaps Königsberg and Heidelberg.
Oh no, Hamburg has already 42 shields collected, that means we would waste 23 if we switch to a library now. Guess I'll build a market first then. These are better than temples. (We don't wont Leo's, do we? I'd rather let the AI build it for us.)

Frankfurt can build the Academy after HE, so I will sell the barracks there.

We have enough galleys for now, so I switch some to trebuchets.

We need more towns to ease our unit support, but Dutch Treat, Woodstock and Nuremberg are messing up the ICS pattern quite a bit. We could fit 5 extra towns into our available space, if I disband and relocate Dutch Treat, Woodstock, Nuremberg and Groningen. Not prio 1, but we should do it in the long run.

If you have no objections, I'll try to play tomorrow.

Lanzelot

Agree with market at Hamburg then library. I'm in fact generally in favor of the libraries (which is why I started the 'ducts when I did); they're useful both for research and for culture for holding other towns later on.

Galleys vs. trebs is close (I think we actually have enough trebs as well)--if we're going to invade overseas (and this includes Greece), I think a few more galleys might be a good idea actually. We will eventually need them to invade other continents, if nothing else.

I'm not somewhere to easily look at the save--can you post a picture of what you're looking at with the cities? I thought I'd taken care to keep a possible CxC pattern when I put Dutch Treat down. It may be another town that is messing things up.

 

[GamezRule]

Could you explain ICS or link me to a good article please, I thought I understood it but it appears I do not.

 

[DWetzel]

Could you explain ICS or link me to a good article please, I thought I understood it but it appears I do not.

Basically, it's CxC spacing.

Those cities will basically be science farms anyway, so there's no particular reason for them to grow much at all (since a size 1 city supporting one scientist gives the same amount of science as a corrupt size 4 city that has one scientist). Since you don't need any real food sources or need the cities to grow quickly, you can pack them in as close as legally possible.

 

[GamezRule]

Hmm, that's what I thought. What I really don't understand is OCN.

 

[DWetzel]

OK, I see the problem now.

I could have built Dutch Treat one space closer to Amsterdam, and probably should have. That would have left a spot on the coast. My thinking at the time was that it didn't matter much, and I wanted to leave one more good tile for Amsterdam to work, since it isn't completely corrupt and will be a useful city. I think I may have miscalculated though.

If Nuremberg was built one space inland from where it is (NE), there would be a spot for another city SW of its current location, on the coast. So Nuremberg takes up a spot where two cities could go.

Destroying Groningen (which is the REAL culprit) would allow another city down that way--there would be one on the BG at the far southwest, one NW of Groningen, and one on either of the two tiles SE of Groningen.

I think the absolute maximum number of cities we could cram in down the area south and west of the mountains/hills (not counting our canal city site, and leaving Eindhoven where it is) is eight. That would require blowing up all four cities.

If my math is right, we could "only" blow up Nuremberg and Groningen and get to seven pretty easily. That might be a reasonable middle ground.

 

[Calis]

Hmm, that's what I thought. What I really don't understand is OCN.

ICS=Infinite City Sprawl (tight spacing of cities)

OCN=Optimal City Number (Beyond that number corruption increases fater with each new city)

 

[Lanzelot]

Spoiler :

Preturn:
Hamburg -> marketplace
Köln-> library

Nürnberg overruns a lot of shields next turn. Give some of those to Köln and Frankfurt,
so that the library and the Heroic Epic finish a turn earlier.
Königsberg -> library

Rename Heidelberg to Heidelberg the Third. -> harbor

Disband two warriors in Berlin. Will speed up the musketman by a turn.

Why is Stuttgart using the sugar? It can't grow anyway. I give the sugar to Heidelberg 2nd.
Stuttgart, Bonn -> aqueduct

Nuremberg, Groningen, Woodstock -> settler
Dutch Treat -> trebuchet
Amsterdam -> musket

Move galleys and some troops towards Nürnberg.
Research 90%. Currently making 243 beakers at -78gpt.

IBT: Russian galley attacks ours at Novosibirsk, but sinks. (3/3 -> 2/4)
Greeks land archer and horse at Amsterdam.

1. 660AD:
Utrecht: galley -> harbor
Nürnberg: horse -> musket
Salzburg: settler -> courthouse

Longbow & ehorse throw Greeks back into the sea.

2. 670AD:
Berlin: musket -> musket
Leipzig: settler -> horse
Eindhoven: horse -> aqueduct

IBT: Russian galley now sinks our 2/4 galley.

3. 680AD:
Hamburg: crusader, market -> library
Königsberg: library -> market
Frankfurt: HE -> longbow (Frankfurt can still build a coupleof units before it has to
start the Academy prebuild.)
Köln: library -> longbow

IBT: Greeks land longbow and horse at Utrecht.
Tlatelolco completes Leonardo's workshop. Good that I switched it, We would not have beaten them anyway.

4. 690AD:
Hannover: market -> library

Two forrests go into Nuremberg. It will produce the last missing shield next turn.
Bremen founded -> galley

Join two workers into Berlin to make it finish the musket a turn earlier.
Join worker to Nürnberg.

Land 12 units at Heraklea, including a settler, an army, our first crusader and a musket.

5. 700AD:
Berlin: musket -> musket
Leipzig: horse -> worker. Leipzig can now operate as a 1-turn worker/warrior combo
for the rest of the GA. The workers will pump up the slowly-growing core cities to 10,
the warriors replace horses/longbows as MP.
Hamburg: library -> longbow
Frankfurt: longbow -> musket
Heidelberg 2nd: musket -> library
Nuremberg settler-disbands...

Found Dortmund as beach head in Greece! During the interturn no Greek units attacked, so looks like we are pretty save up here, Greek army is still marching south...
Unload 8 more units in Dortmund.

Found Panama. Our returning curragh goes right through it. Start galley.
Loose a vgalley to a 2/4 scandinavian galley.

Hire a few scientists.

6. 710AD:
Chemistry -> Metallurgy
Leipzig: worker -> warrior
Utrecht: harbor -> galley

Found Kiel -> galley

Ship chain lands 8 more units in Dortmund. Still no unit attacked us last turn, so we break out of the beachhead now with 28 units, including 2 muskets and two Armies.

Another forest goes into Groningen, last shield comes next turn.

IBT: Learn Theology from the GLib. This is going to be a close shave...! Can we jump the palace, before the GLib expires?

7. 720AD:
Rotterdam: musket -> aqueduct
Leipzig: warrior -> worker
Hamburg: longbow -> longbow
Groningen settler-disbands
Nürnberg: musket -> longbow
Köln: longbow -> longbow
Hannover: library -> musket
Heidelberg 3rd: harbor -> aqueduct
Russia starts Sistine Chapel.

Join a worker to Hannover.

Land 5 more units in Dortmund. (First Greek longbows appear in that area.)

8. 730AD:
Berlin: musket -> musket
Frankfurt: musket -> Sistine Chapel (I think we will have Military Tradition within 20 turns.)
Leipzig: worker -> warrior
Stuttgart: auqeduct -> longbow
Dutch Treat: trebuchet -> settler
Hamburg: crusader

Found Breslau -> wealth

We are currently making 301 bpt, 4 turns to go till Metallurgy, but now our savings
are almost used up and I need to lower science to 60%. Metallurgy in 6 at -10gpt, 202bpt.

IBT: the first two Greek longbows attack Dortmund. The first kills our musket clean (lost only a hitpoint due to defensive trebuchet fire), the second dies against a spear.

9. 740AD:
Amsterdam: musket -> musket
Leipzig: warrior -> worker
Hamburg: longbow -> longbow
Heidelberg 2nd: library -> musket

ehorse kills longbow in Greece and generates Barbarossa!
Join worker to Königsberg
Try to bombard road to Dortmund, but miss!

IBT: 4 longbows attack Dortmund. 3 die against crusader and the spear, the last kills
our crusader!! Why did I have to miss that road last turn.

10 750AD:
Leipzig: worker -> warrior
All three trebuchets in Dortmund try to destroy the road to Herakleia and all miss!!!

Handover notes:

• A couple of units in the Greek invasion force lost hitpoints from treb fire or from taking out enemy longbows. This turn I left them behind for healing, but they can catch up with the stack, cause they have 2-movement. Unfortunately I had to fill one Army because of that, but I think it won't be attacked anyway. A crusader is in it. (Leave the heavily damaged horses behing for one more turn for extra healing. They are quite safe where they curently are and can reunite with the stack at Corinth.) The other units should reunify on the plains at Corinth and capture that city in two turns. (We can take Corinth before Athens, because it's already size 9.) I expect Athens will turn up behind Corinth. Don't risk any units. Keep the stack together and rather let Greece re-capture Corinth than loose any units defending it. Athens is the important target.
• The Spearmen Army is now pillaging it's way to the Persian saltpeter resource. It already destroyed both silk sources and can take out one iron and a good part of the Persian road network on the way to the salpeter.
• Once we have 1-2 muskets down at the choke, we should try to get the spices at Marathon. (Muskets should cover the workers that complete the road for our trebuchets.)
• I've fortified all cities on the northcoast with three units, because the Scandinavians have Invention now. Haven't seen any berzerks yet, though.
• I expect the next ten turns to be the crucial ones, because it will finally see decisive action in Greece, and it will take some effort to get the most out of our remaining 7 turns of GA for our research. Metallurgy can be done in 3 turns (hire scientists in corrupt towns at the end of 770AD!!!), and then we should use the last 4 turns to put as many beakers into Military Tradition as possible, so that it doesn't take too long when the GA ends.
• In any case make sure MT is ready, before Frankfurt has accumulated 400 shields.
• Two settlers will be ready soon down in our ICS area. Fill the gaps between Bremen and Eindhoven.

 

[splunge the 2nd]

Who's next? edit: Looks like Me! I'll be able to play it this week. I'll review the save tonight/tomorrow and psot any questions before I commit

Question, I'm not sure I understand why we are planing a palace jump to Athens. Is it to allow a productive city where we're invading? generate culture to avoid a culture flip (can a capital even flip?) Also you said "This is going to be a close shave...! Can we jump the palace, before the GLib expires?" Pardon my noobitude (is that a word) but are we looking to eke out the last bit of tech from the GL before we disband the capital or is there some strategy I'm missing where we benefit from abandoning it before we disband?

Thanks for patience.

 

[TheOverseer714]

The strategy is, we let an enemy grab our capital with the Great Library before we get education and get the GLib Elevator when we take it back. Losing our capital jumps the palace to the city with a combo of high population and military presence, giving us a new core in a more productive area. It's usually a vanilla/PTW tactic, but it may help us here with such a cramped starting spot.

 

[Lanzelot]

Question, I'm not sure I understand why we are planing a palace jump to Athens. Is it to allow a productive city where we're invading? generate culture to avoid a culture flip (can a capital even flip?) Also you said "This is going to be a close shave...! Can we jump the palace, before the GLib expires?" Pardon my noobitude (is that a word) but are we looking to eke out the last bit of tech from the GL before we disband the capital or is there some strategy I'm missing where we benefit from abandoning it before we disband?

Thanks for patience.

There are two reasons:
The first is, there is much more space around Athens, so it would allow us a much larger and more powerful core than the current cramped area around Berlin.

And for the second see post #592: we don't want to abandon Berlin, we want the Vikings to take it, so that the GLib survives. Then we shutdown research and use cavalry for as long as it is effective. Once we see railways appearing in at least two countries (or rifles or Universal Suffrage or some other indicator that two civs have reached the industrial age), we take back Berlin and enjoy the "big tech elevator" right into the industrial age.
Prerequisites for this are: a) we don't learn Education before the Vikings take Berlin and b) the AI is actually doing some useful research. But it looks like Greece, Russia, Aztecs and Persia are doing ok research wise, and the others are only two techs behind, so the plan might work.

 

[Lanzelot]

Oops, crosspost with Overseer...

 

[GamezRule]

One kink in our plans, how will we prevent Berlin from just flipping back to us?

 

[splunge the 2nd]

Got it. Sorry I forgot the earlier discussion. I've thought of gifting the GL city. Letting the AI capture it is ballsy!
Are we allowing opening negotiations with the AI to see where they are tech-wise? If so, we'd do well to lure the Vikings in when anyone gets education. Not having ever tried to let the AI take my capital, any tips for "inviting" them and channelling them where we want. Do we sell off improvements there, pillage or leave it intact for recapture? I expect we lay siege with defensive units around it til we're ripe for recapture?

 

[TheOverseer714]

No diplomacy...at all. So gifting is out. If we think a capture is imminent, we can sell off everything and let it happen. As far as luring them in, no defenders usually works.