SGFN-08: Random AWM Succession Game

[Lanzelot]

Oh, I thought you were Portuguese?!

Well, anyway, it's not that I would not trust your authority... It's just hard for me to accept that answer, because that would mean my own memory is failing me
(I'm still trying to find a counter example in my old sav files, i.e an example where a town with +2 food picked a forest...) Perhaps it was changed for C3C? (I've been playing a lot PTW lately.)

Lanzelot

 

[Optional]

(I'm still trying to find a counter example in my old sav files, i.e an example where a town with +2 food picked a forest...) Perhaps it was changed for C3C? (I've been playing a lot PTW lately.)

Maybe it's easier to start from a fresh 4000BC save where you start next to a forest - see what happens after 10 turns?

 

[Daeron]

lurker's comment: I don't think anything has changed. I know I've seen examples in a recent fast diplo game where the governor would select a forest over a grassland tile.

 

[templar_x]

Oh, I thought you were Portuguese?!

you see, this rule i mentioned between our people even works if you don´t know the other´s nationality.

but according to your deduction from "templar_x" living in "Tomar", it would be easy to guess that you´re more likely to be a physicist than a historian

templar_x

 

[Lanzelot]

but according to your deduction from "templar_x" living in "Tomar", it would be easy to guess that you´re more likely to be a physicist than a historian

Well, "mathematician" to be more precise...

But anyway: back to the game! I think over here in this thread we won't be able to solve this little mystery regarding governor tile assignment anyway, so let's no longer hijack the thread. Everyone interested in the outcome of our "governor research" should follow the discussion over in the other thread: Emphasize Food vs. Emphasize Production

For your reference, here's again a list of things I think we need to discuss now:

• Do we want to setup Hamburg as SF instead of Leipzig? It won't have any corruption problems and can run as quasi-maintenance-free 4-turner at size 5-7.
• Research: I think the time will come pretty soon, when it makes sense again to do some own research. And it would make sense to switch to Monarchy soon, as corruption is already becoming a nuisance! My estimation is that we need 8 turns for Poly and 10 turns for Monarchie. If we decide to do this quickly, Leipzig may again work properly as a 4-turner, so we would save building a granary in Hamburg and a barracks in Leipzig.
• Military: Unfortunately my losses at Rotterdam have been quite high. (3 archers lost.) Attacking the capital with only 4 archers is probably suicide. (Especially as two of our 4 archers are elite, and I don't won't to employ an elite unless it has a 100% chance of victory!) Reinforcements will arrive in 4-5 turns, and by that time the road from our core all the way to Amsterdam will be finished as well, and then our war will gain momentum...
• It looks like there is a mega-continent to our east, and we are attached to it via a choke point. At least the Greeks and the Persians are on that landmass, perhaps even a third AI. From sailing around it, it looks like the Greek territory is both large and good, so I have a very strong foreboding, that the German government will soon take up new offices in Athens...
  In the long run we only need to block the choke point and intercept the Persian Immortals with 1-2 cats and a few horsemen, while at the same time shipping a major army over to Greece. Via galleys, Greece is only one turn away, and we won't meet much resistance, because their units will try to reach us via the choke point, so they will be traveling in the middle of nowhere for a long time...
  After the Greek territory is conquered, our settlers can go there quickly via galleys, therefore perhaps we should already start stockpiling settlers, after settling 2-3 more towns in our current core.
  But mind you: the Hoplites will be tough nuts, so we probably want cats to go along with our horsemen and we need to proceed very slowly and with superior numbers over there.

 

[DWetzel]

I'd say the following, without having the save in front of me:

1. Let's not waste time with another granary in Hamburg.

2. If the times for Poly/Monarchy are right, do we have enough $ saved up to go for maximum research for that number of turns? If so, I'm in favor of that. Even if corruption doesn't get reduced enough to help, not having to use both wheats (and thus being able to use another mined BG) will probably do the trick. Hamburg will also greatly enjoy the mined wheat tile, allowing it to become a far more productive city (keep enough forests handy!)

3. I'd probably take the time to wipe out Utrecht on the way down. Bring our stack back up a bit, let the reinforcements consolidate into the stack, then hit Utrecht and head south. Reinforcements to follow as needed to pick off stray units and fill in the back lines. We'll also want to work on getting a few more spearmen built to cover our newer cities.

4. Here I think you're a bit off the rails. After we get the Dutch taken care of, I think I'd like to see us do the following:

a) Block off the chokepoint. I'm fairly certain that the AI won't bother to try to run through us at the chokepoint. I could be wrong as there's no other way to get to us, but I think they'll just sort of mill about.

b) Expand to fill Dutch territory and up to the chokepoint as quickly as possible. If I'm right about a) that means we need fairly minimal miltary production during that time. If I'm not, then we'll have to balance differently.

c) I'm not sure I'm in love with the idea of galley invasions when we do have a land mass to go over. Sure, we'll need ships eventually, but I'd rather not take the time to produce them in numbers now. Persia's bigger than us by a decent bit, and Greece has pretty decent ground, and they have good UUs. The fight against them will be a LOT harder than the fight against the Dutch. We'll need all the horsies we can get.

 

[Optional]

I'd say the following, without having the save in front of me:

c) I'm not sure I'm in love with the idea of galley invasions when we do have a land mass to go over. Sure, we'll need ships eventually, but I'd rather not take the time to produce them in numbers now.

Lurker's comment:
My bet of the day: you'll change your mind once you've looked at the save. Here's why: there are no more than 2 coastal tiles between Nürnberg and the other continent, while going south over land is a looong way from Berlin; you can be wondering for a dozen turns and then still you're just past the choke point and in the mosquito ridden jungle. Also remember you would need a bunch of workers to hack a road through that bush; taking the land route will be a difficult operation.
For an effective naval crossing just a couple of galleys would do fine as a start, it's an easy ferry by the looks of it.

 

[Lanzelot]

DWetzel,
I agree completely on points 1 and 2.
On point 3 I would suggest: just ignore Utrecht for the moment. It produces a spear every 18 turns, so doesn't pose any threat at all. After we take the rest of the Dutch towns, it becomes the capital and then we can take it without auto-razing it. This saves a settler.

And point 4: yes, what Optional says is definitely right! Sending units to Greece by galley takes 1 turn, going on foot will take 40-50 turns! (No way we can build roads down there beyond the choke point!) So if we want to attack at a given point in time, then we have 40 more turns to produce units, so we will be able to make more units bear down on the Greek, if we build a couple galleys, not less! (You seem to be under the impression that if we build a couple of galleys this will substract from the number of horsemen we will have for attacking Greece. Quite the opposite is the case.)

Let me refine that strategy: you were wondering, whether the AI would attack at the choke point or not. Well, we can make them attack there! Just put an empty undefended town on our side of the choke point, then the AI will desperately try to get there... It works like a magnet...
(As a matter of fact, I used this in my turnset for making the Dutch spearman walking back and forth until I had enough archers to take care of him: undefended Frankfurt played the role of the magnet. Then whenever the spear was at Leipzigs borders, I closed the gap and he would walk back south trying to get to some other undefended spot. Then I opened the gap again and next turn he walked back north... By the time my archers were ready, that poor guy was so dizzy from running around in circles, he didn't put up any resistance at all... )

Anyway, while the AI is marching their units through the jungle for dozens and dozens of turns, we just prepare our landing force and then quickly unload them right in their backyard! Saves a lot of time and we meet much less resistance than fighting our way up north through the jungle.
I'm not completely sure about the following, but I think if we unload our units on a mountain outside their territory, they will even ignore that stack (as long as an undefended town is waiting for them on the other side of the continent...) and we can take our time for building up the stack over several turns. That way we need only 2-3 galleys.

 

[DWetzel]

Could just be that I suck at naval invasions.

Good point on Utrecht. Taking it last is a good plan.

And yes, we can set up an undefended town, but if the choke is completely blocked off, I don't think they would go for it. I could be wrong. It would probably work to just load it up with walls and a few defensive units, and let them beat themselves senseless. That's a fairly substantial risk against Persian immortals though. I assume you're talking about opening and closing a hole in the choke--which works great, if they have somewhere else to go.

 

[Optional]

On point 3 I would suggest: just ignore Utrecht for the moment. After we take the rest of the Dutch towns, it becomes the capital and then we can take it without auto-razing it. This saves a settler.

Lurker's comment:
For players who are less familiar with the game mechanics: a capital will still auto-raze when it has been a capital for less than 10 turns and no other culture is present. A cultural expansion is needed for a town not to auto-raze when it's still at size 1.

 

[Optional]

And yes, we can set up an undefended town, but if the choke is completely blocked off, I don't think they would go for it. I could be wrong. It would probably work to just load it up with walls and a few defensive units, and let them beat themselves senseless. That's a fairly substantial risk against Persian immortals though. I assume you're talking about opening and closing a hole in the choke--which works great, if they have somewhere else to go.

Lurker's comment:
I think I would ideally gather my troops on that mountain, the mountain doesn't block access to your peninsula, and gives you the advantage that you can see a bit further into the fog of war, so you know which units are coming.
Ideally you then want a road on that mountain for your catapults - that might be a hard one, though - but you need to attack those immortals on your own turn somehow. I guess the immortals will attempt to pass the mountain if there's an undefended goody just behind it and the mountain doesn't give them a handy stepping stone.

 

[DWetzel]

My guess is that if we get a spear or three fortified on the mountain, the incoming units would bypass it rather than attack, giving us multiple turns to bomb them to smithereens as they went around to attack whatever (and we really wouldn't need "bait"--our existing cities work just fine for that purpose).

Of course, this requires getting a sizable-ish force TO the mountain, including catapults, which would require:

Sufficient spare units to fortify there;
A road all the way down through multiple turns of marshy ick in order to get catapults there; and
Having any catapults in the first place.

 

[GamezRule]

Were moving up in the world. (first major invasion being discussed)

EDIT: I agree with Lanzelot.

 

[Lanzelot]

Lurker's comment:
I think I would ideally gather my troops on that mountain, the mountain doesn't block access to your peninsula, and gives you the advantage that you can see a bit further into the fog of war, so you know which units are coming.
Ideally you then want a road on that mountain for your catapults

My guess is that if we get a spear or three fortified on the mountain, the incoming units would bypass it rather than attack, giving us multiple turns to bomb them to smithereens as they went around to attack whatever (and we really wouldn't need "bait"--our existing cities work just fine for that purpose).

I see the plan is taking shape now. Good ideas, everyone.

But where's our Captain?
Hey Mr. Overseer , enough of flirting with your sweetheart, get back to work...!

 

[Lanzelot]

Ah, sorry, he is still fighting with his computer:

It may be awhile before I can play, at the moment, my civ computer is ailing and may not make it I have a new computer, but no install discs, and it is win7, so wish me luck in healing the sick or teaching the young. (this means there are 2 copies of Civ3 complete on order, and an attempt to save the ailing computer will occur too)

How about DWetzel playing his skipped turn now, while we wait for the Captain getting his comp up and running again?

 

[DWetzel]

Yeah, I can do that. I'll give it today for Overseer to check in and then post if/when I officially start to play.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I have the new copy of C3 Complete, so after work tonight, I will try installing it. Wish me luck! Anyone here have any experience installing it on a windows 7 OS? Amd yes, i will need the skip.

 

[DWetzel]

I see the plan is taking shape now. Good ideas, everyone.

I was kind of trying to point out that we're a long, long way from being able to do that as of yet.

 

[Lanzelot]

I have the new copy of C3 Complete, so after work tonight, I will try installing it. Wish me luck! Anyone here have any experience installing it on a windows 7 OS? Amd yes, i will need the skip.

I have done it now on a Vista laptop and on a Win7 Netbook. There are problems, but with the links given in this post, you should be able to overcome them.

Good luck!

 

[Sparthage]

Hey DWetzel! Congrats on the 1,000th post!

And Overseer, update on the installation?