SGOTM 02 - Fifth Element

[BrianS]

Don't forget the good city site N of former New Sarai. We can build a port city on the isthmus that will allow us to move ships into the inland sea from the west.

Once we got coal hooked, i suggest to start a factory in Osaka, then IW, then Pentagon:
it's expensive, but it gives +2 XP to every unit in every city, making West Point useless.

My concern is that Osaka is our strongest military production city, and I hate it to take it out of the picture during wartime, especially with Infantry just coming in. I think we need it to pump out a good batch of infantry before we start down this path.

 

[BLubmuz]

@Brian
The main point of that post was about (NO) West Point.

If we build a factory in Osaka we'll add another 25% to our production, but we can delay it.

If we are lucky to pop a GE, we can burn him for IW in Osaka, then Pentagon will be due in 10-12 turns, and - trust me - it's worth them.

Another question: after AL, do we research Railroad > combustion or else?

 

[BrianS]

@Blubmuz: Good idea about Railroad > Combustion. Is enough to get us destroyers or will we need another tech?

Also, I do think your idea for Pentagon in Osaka is good, I just want to make sure the timing is right. I would like to get a bunch of infantry out asap while we have a monopoly on them.

 

[Perugia]

I strongly agree with Brian about no factory in Osaka. Factory will not add 25% to production only 8% for the reasons that follow.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but bonuses do not stack and we are already getting 50% from bureaucracy and 100% from heroic epic on top of the police state and forge boni giving a total production of 300% x base hammers.

A factory will only add 25% of base hammers increasing total production to 325% so that's only an increase of 8.33%. Worse still we only get 175% x base when building the factory.

In the time it takes to complete the factory we could have build 3 infantry units and we would need to build more than 40 Infantry units to break even. I think the game will end before then! IMHO it will never pay for itself and is just not worth the hammers invested. More infantry now please.

If we really want a factory far better to build in another city with more base hammers than Osaka. With a forge and police state there is already a 50% bonus so the real benefit is a modest 16.67%. We only lose the police state bonus when building the factory so it only delays the first 2 infantry. However the break even is still 16 Infantry units. The city would have to have a hefty base or loads of food for whipping to be able to produce more than 16 Infantry before the end of the game?

Oh and when we get railroad we obviously should build strategic railroad to move units to the front (This should start in Osaka) and railroads to get extra hammers should also go first to Osaka due to its 300% multiplier.

Oh and Pentagon is good but not in Osaka as it stops the HE working while in construction. Especially if we can complete by GE/whip/chop. We don't care if the city economy gets wrecked completing it in any city outside the capital.

I think we should go railroad > artillery > combustion.

Artillery can often win against rifles and we will need artillery once the AI gets Assembly Line whereas we can afford to delay transports and destroyers.

With our global empire we should not care if the AI gets to combustion first. We just need to have the AIs oil resources covered. Isuggest we develop a long range plan to have frigates/ironclads near the AI sea oil and infantry/cavalry near their land oil (even our "friends").

 

[BLubmuz]

You're probably right about factories.
I was rethinking by myself, but your post helps me to focus:
- If we go for a Space race (and we don't), factory helps a lot, perhaps with an hydro plant or so
- Probably i'm still conditioned by Civ 3, where they gave a 50% more production
- Time is crucial in this game, then a factory (or IW) must have a low break-even, and they don't
- I started to thinking this after my WotM1, and probably i would have gained more than 12 turns in my conquest victory.

Conclusion: f**k factories, we're not goin' for a Space Race.

If we can go for artillery, would not be better research railroad AFTER?

@Perugia
I made some compt (i'm stupid sometime, it's my job, but here we say "a shoemaker goes around with broken shoes"), then:
As you said, bonus don't stack, then we got (base hammers = BH):
forge = BH*1.25
forge + factory = BH*1.50
HE = BH*2.00 (only for military, probably also settler and worker, sure not missionary)
PS = BH*1.25 (same as HE)
Bureau = BH*1.50

Example 1: production of a building in Capital, assuming 20 BH:
20*1.25 + 20*1.50 = 20+5+10 = 35 Hammers/turn
Example 2: production of a Infantry in Capital, assuming 20 BH:
20*1.25 + 20*1.50 + 20*2.25 = 20+5+10+25 = 60 Hammers/turn

Bonuses don't stack, otherwise we'll have
ex.1: 20*(1.25*1.50) = 20*1.875 = 37.5 H/t
ex.2: 20*(1.25*1.50*2.25) = 20*4.21875 = 84.375
but sum
ex.1: 20*(1+.25+.50) = 20*1.75 = 35
ex.2: 20*(1+.25+.50+1.00+.25) = 20*3 = 60
I paid attention to this (but, again not fully) in my WotM01, but only now i have full focus, and it's simply what you can read mousing over the production in a city.

Same for gold and beakers.

This is the good face of a team ... compare ideas, discuss and discover fresh water (stupid me)

@Brian
Combustion is sufficient for destroyers, once we build and road an oil derrick in one of our oil resources

Pushed by the production mistake, i made a comparison between binary and break-even research, just put amounts in F2 screen in Excel:
I regret to inform you that binary gives veryy feeew benefits that it doesn't worth the effort.
I wish to try in a early stage of the game, to see if something changes, i'll let you know.

 

[Doom Train]

Turn 1: Transported some troops via chain.

Turn 2: Researched AL started Railroad. Demanded tribute from KK before declaring war he didn t gave anything. Looks like Hatty has small stack(1 calv 1 cat) thats bombarding Otrar.

Turn 3: Succesfully defended Cori(next player should consider renaming those incan cities). Infantry started in few cities. Razed Otrar(no losses).

Turn 4: Our Galleon in inner Japan destroyed by KK Frigate. I m upgrading caravels because there are 2 Frigates lurking araund. Destroyed 1 KK Frigate which was heading towards chain. There is only 1 musket defending Awdaghost.

Turn 5: Captured Awdaghost. Upgraded experienced units to infantry. KK Frigate destroyed in inner Japan.

Turn 6: Other KK frigate destroyed our fish boat in inner Japan. Destroyed it with two Frigates. Started ironclad in kyoto.

Turn 7: Few upgrades production changes towards infantry and cannon.

Turn 8: KK Frigate came from shadows and destroyed 1 of our galleon in the chain.(It was empty). Sent some frigates to deal with it.

Turn 9: That Frigate destroyed another galleon from chain. But got destroyed by our frigate. War ended between Hatty and KK.

Turn 10: Destroyed KK s galleon in inner sea. Looks like KK upgraded his outdated army in this turn.


There are two stacks heading to Mongolia and more can be created. Guys look at the power graph, looks like only Bismark left as a theat.

I dont know if its a bug or not but Hatty has Artillery unit but she don t have tech for it.



I think upload page down again. Get it from here...

http://rapidshare.de/files/35736466/Fifth_Element_AD-1748.Civ4SavedGame.html

 

[BLubmuz]

I dont know if its a bug or not but Hatty has Artillery unit but she don t have tech for it.

Good TS, DT
I downloaded the save to verify this, and i've seen anything about artillery (i've tried F4/techs and a look to Egypt using our archer and Samurai there).
Would you like please explain why you suppose this?

But, for team and next player (sorry i forget who's up):
since we are warmogering, what about research artillery?
the upgrade Cannon/artillery is not much expensive, and it's valuable in terms of power.
Another reason to do so is that phisycs and railroad are already known by some AI, and if we research fast, we can trade it (AIs overvalue this tech).
Of course we can research it and not trade, but usually AI research it.

edit:
i've checked the upload page, now it works

 

[Perugia]

Well played Doom Train. From what you found on the power graph it seems Biz be next in line after KK.



BrianS (up)
Sweetacshon (on deck) (skipped until 6 October)
Merum (skip a week)
Perugia
Blubmuz
Doom Train (resting)

 

[Doom Train]

I downloaded the save to verify this, and i've seen anything about artaillery (i've tried F4/techs and a look to Egypt using our archer and Samurai there).
Would you like please explain why you suppose this?

ups sorry just realized that psychics is prequisite for artaillery. Thanks for asking about it

 

[BrianS]

Great turnset DT, you lived up to your name.

I got a great big smile looking at your builds on the ring continent: Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Frig, Frig, Frig. Then I visited New Japan: Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Can, Can, Can, Univ, Globe.

Buddy, you got an attitude. A really great attitude.

 

[BrianS]

Here's the semblance of a plan:

1) Re-set galleon chain to Cori

2) Take out longbow-longbow-settler on hill near former New Sarai before city is founded.

3) Keep: Beshbalik, Karakorum (not likely this turnset)
Raze: Tabriz; Ning-hsia

4) Build a settler to settle on isthmus

5) Reinforce Mongol front from New Japan.

6) Build army in ring continent to reinforce Mongol front and also to prepare for Bismarck. I'm inclined to keep at least half of all new forces built on ring continent for Bismarck's SOD. This will also help protect our ring cities from sneak attack. I'm concerned about Bismarck's power. He says he's pleased with us, but he won't trade with us or go to war for us. Unfortunately, no one else will war with him.

7) Use the whip carefully----use it if we can grow back quickly and without making our cities too unhappy.

8) Railroad > Physics > Artillery (although we won't get there this turnset).

Let me know what you think. I'll try to play tomorrow.

Edit: Oh yeah. DT, thanks for the 2 great stacks ready to pounce on KK.

 

[BLubmuz]

Hi Brian
yours seems a good plan, just a readjust about techs:
premise: i don't know how far we are to complete railroad, then
if we are far we can go for artillery > railroad > combustion
if we are close, complete railroad, then artillery, then:
with phisycs we see uranium and we're able to build destroyers once hooked, but combustion can be traded, no AI get it for now.

And you're right about Bismark, keep troops in the cities near his borders, i got a bad foreboding too. At least those troops will be ready to attack after we'll left KK with only former Egyptian cities.

 

[Perugia]

Your plan sounds excellent. By way of comment I would say

# If you want to change the research path per BLumbuz #412 that would be fine by me.

# With the Isthmus city underway why not build ironclads on the ring continent when the current set of frigates complete.

# Tokyo has drydock so better to build a frigate there and switch one of the other cities to infantry/cannon when it's current frigate build completes.

# Whip is best used when there are several unhappy citizens that can be whipped away in one go.

# In preparation for Biz SoD. How about ensuring we have a good road network on the border so we can do the old "invite attack on weak city ploy" then hit the SoD with collateral damage.

# I could not agree more with you about the mix of units vs buildings in our build queues.

Good luck

 

[BrianS]

@Blubmuz and Perugia: Physics (8 turns) is a pre-req for artillery (8 turns) so artillery isn't just around the corner. We are halfway through RR (5 turns left). I'm inclined to finish off RR under the circumstances, but let me know if you disagree.

By the way, Hatty does have artillery. I see an arty unit in Heliopolis. She has Physics, which is the pre-req to Art. We can't see that she has Art because we don't have Physics.

@Blubmuz 415: Biz does not yet have Assembly Line or Physics, so he's not nearly as advanced as Hatty. I'm going to scout his cities with the scouts currently in Egypt. Also, I think we need to be ready to shift our ship chain when we go to war with Biz. I think we'll want to run it from Aryan to Munich.

 

[BLubmuz]

@Brian
i didn't remember phisycs was a prerequisite for artillery.
In addition, i didn't suppose Hatty was so advanced (and Biz perhaps).

Given this, the path Railroad > Phisycs > Artillery seems the best choice.

Good luck.

 

[BrianS]

I wasn't able to finish my turns this morning, and will probably not get a chance to do so until Sunday morning. So far, so good. Belshavik is ours, Tabriz is razed and Panama has been founded. KK is putting up little resistance, although I just spotted a 4 stack of cavalry near Berlin headed towards our ring cities.

 

[Perugia]

BrianS. Great turnset so far.

Moving the ship chain sounds good. If Dortmund grows to size 2 we can take that rather than raze as it will be an ideal base for the attack on KK in Egypt. It's probably worth leaving a galleon or 2 running the Santiago - Huamanga route at least until the chain is in place.

Please think about some ships to form the basis of the forces below. Each force will want some frigates/destroyers/ironclads to protect 2+ galleons. Forces 1 & 2 can work together using Panama and the gap in the ring. Forces 3 & 4 can be supplied by the Aryan - Munich chain.

Thoughts for the End Game

We will not win quickly by marching overland so as far as possible we want to land artillery/infantry right next to the AIs coastal cities to meet up with slower advanced forces pushing forward overland. With enough ships to both pre-bombard city defenses and quickly move artillery into place we should be able to capture the next city along each coastline every 3-4 turns. Using the sequence land > bombard > assault > move.

If enough reserves are coming in on enough ships so we can 'leap frog' we should be able advance much quicker possibly capturing a city every 2-3 turns.

So we should start to work on amassing transport and bombard units for these "end runs" ready to attack Biz at Gao and Kubi Saleh. Eventually we will want a third such force to attack Mao at Xian.

Here are some suggested lines off attack for the end game.

1) Xian > Shanghai > Chengdu > Guagzhua > Beijing > Thebes > Memphis
2) Kubi Saleh > Frankfurt > Berlin > Cologne > Phonecien > Essen > Byblos > Memphis
3) Gao > Hamburg > Munich > Alexandria > Dortmund > Giza > Heliopolis
4) Teohuican > Elephantine > Pi-Ramesses

Each force should be backed by at least 1 worker team able to advance the railhead by one tile a turn so that the railhead always reaches the border and new-build and healed units can easily get to the front to advance overland or board ship as required.

Other cities to capture in the last few turns:

Nanjing. Capture by new build units from the ring continent once force 1 has enough to capture Thebes.

Hangzhow. Capture by last time builds in neo-Japan. The remaining transports from the Santiago - Huamanga route can be used to ferry these in.

Force 4 uses the "land sea" area around Pi-Rameses and KK's Egyptian holdings where it can lurk using OB agreements and neutral territory. It's job is to disrupt the enemy rear and absorb SoD attacks and eventually take out the inland cities in conjunction with elements of force 3.

Note that given enough forces at our disposal we could win in as few as 32 turns! Note also that we should keep ALL the coastal cities as this strategy relies heavily on naval transport.

I'll add a screenie to this whenthe next save is posted.

 

[BrianS]

DT left me with 2 great stacks, and early moves were to bring them to Belshavik. Basic war plan is to take out the core cities, going straight for Belshavik and Karakorum. I'll send a smaller stack to take out Tabriz and Ning-Hsia. Lots of boring troop movements and minor skirmishes occured, and only the highlights are mentioned here.

Turn 3, Belshavik is taken with the loss of only a couple units.

Turn 4, KK sends a Frigate/Galleon combination towards our inland sea islands.



We do not have strong forces to defend our islands. But we do have 2 frigates nearby, so I roll the dice and send them into battle. The first loses, but the second takes out KK's frigate, sending the galleon scurrying back to safety.

RR also comes in this turn, and we start researching physics. Our workers start laying tracks on mines/mills for the extra hammer. They also work on strategic routes.

Turn 5, Panama is founded. This enables a port-to-port ship chain from Santiago to Panama.



Turn 6, Tabriz is taken and razed.

A stack of KK Cavalry is spotted outside Berlin heading towards our ring cities. I start moving troops towards Timbuktu and Niani to defend



Turn 8, our archer scout in Berlin is killed by KK's cavalry.

KK also lands a stack of Cav/Gren/Can next to Aryan, which is defended by a single axe. I rush the infantry in its build cue. We don't have enough money to upgrade the axe. I set science slider to 0 to get a little money in case we need it for more upgrades next turn. Aryan survives an IBT cannon attack. Next turn our infantry takes out the grenadier and the axe is upgraded to machine gun to defend a direct attack. The cav/can are dealt with in due course.

Turn 10, IBT KK lands Can/Can/Cav just N of Panama. These are all taken out by brave Japanese forces.

And here's how we look on the current power chart:



The Save

 

[BrianS]

Here are my post-turn notes:

Frigates are bombing Ning-Hsia and a small stack is assembling 1 S. Cavalry to the E are pillaging. Ning-Hsia should fall soon.

1 large stack is approaching Karakorum, which should also fall soon. This capital city is guarded by 4 rifleman and 1 cannon. The stack should be plenty to take it.

Another large stack is gathering just w of Beshbalik, which will come out of revolt next turn.

I'm building a RR between Timbuktu and Niani. I'm also laying tracks on mines/mills and strategic routes across the empire.

Ship chain now extends all the way from Santiago to Panama.

There are some cities crying out for growth, and I've been trying to balance growth and production. There's a workboat near Aryan which I was bringing to TOLEDO. It's one of those cities that could use some growth so we can work more production tiles. It has some good tiles unworked due to lack of citizens.

There's a great prophet sitting in Madrid. He popped out mid-way through my turnset. I saw no pressing need for him, so put him to sleep. He can contribute towards research of DR, which is not a priority, or he can become a super-specialist or he can be used for a GA if we get something other than a GProph next time.

New Japan is woefully undefended. It's pumping out military units, but they've all been sent to the ring continent. KK has already tried one attack at Aryan, which I successfully deflected. Keep on the lookout for these.

KK's 4 cav stack near Berlin disappeared from our view when it killed our archer in Berlin. I'm assuming it's heading towards our SE ring cities, but I do not know where it is. Keep an eye out for it. Also, KK has a frigate/galley pair causing trouble in the inland sea. It recently landed troops near Panama, which we also quickly killed.

I think we should be focused now on attacking Biz. We may even want a 2 front war. We need some more military in our SE ring cities before we attack, but we're getting closer. It may also be time to shift the galleon chain to the east of New Japan, running between Aryan and Munich.

I've also started building the occasional machine gun. These are great for city and stack defense.

There's a galleon in port in Santiago. It's waiting for the machine gun to arrive before loading up military units and sending them down the chain.

 

[Perugia]

Brian. Well played. I like the way you defended Aryan against KKs naval invasion.

Merum and/or Sweetacshon are now up as they're due back from skip. I'll give them jointly 48 hrs to post a got it which will give the rest of us time to discuss the fastest way to achieve victory.

Comments

In the save KK has a frigate/galleon and Biz a frigate, ironclad & galleon in the inner sea and there's bound to be more in the fog. Looks like Biz is thinking of settling stone island. I'm glad we have ironclads in production but I think we need some more. We can build a couple at Tokyo to defend New Japan and station them off Aryan and Cordoba in case the Ai to repeat what KK did. We also need more in the inner sea and at Niani.

KK has a caravel spying on us and threatening pillage at Cordoba we can send the frigate up from Aryan and/or rush the ironcalad at Barce.

NB Tokyo has the dockyard so can build ironclads much quicker than anywhere else in New Japan. The cannon there completes in 2 after which I suggest a switch to ironclad.

St Patrick. It was a mistake to have priest specialists in Madrid as there's a 27% chance of Great Prophet. Madrid should stop running priest specialists now and go for merchants/artists instead. We already had one golden age so would need 2 more specialists for another so St Patrick can't do that. He could build a shrine for one of the minor religions when we capture the city. That won't happen. We may as well make him a super specialist and the obvious choice is Osaka.

Strategic railroads - yes let's get these in place - workers should be focussing on building railroads until these are complete. Many of them will boost production. I suggest these interlink with the ship chains ie one line from Santiago - Tokyo - Osaka and a second from Mongolia to Niani via Panama. The Osaka line can later be extended to Toledo to end in a ship chain to Dortmund.

If workers move far then build partial rail and note on the map instead of wasting worker turns (like we did when the roads were started near Osaka in the BCs).

That's all for now.