SGOTM 02 - Fifth Element

[Sweetacshon]

Well, I'm not UNHAPPY, I'd just hoped to finish KK off up north in my turns, and actually, after checking the results page, we could well be inline for some laurels

I'm pretty sure I started uranium mines on both the ring and NewJap. I'm not sure we need the transports/ destroyers, but for about 8 turns of research to ensure our troops aren't sunk, it seems worth it. After that, definately shut it down.

I think we should give Biz AL... we'll have all his money, he'll spend his forces elsewhere, and as long as we are quick, keep him from oil, and are careful of his existing navy, we should roll him fairly soon. There are a few ironclads coming in a turn or two in exInca which can go along the south coast to meet up with the existing one there.

The plan for Mao is good... I think artillery is the key there. We have an ironclad near his island city, and 2 more frigates near samarqand, and combined with the 3 already off his coast, it should be enough to overcome his navy. There is a spare frigate recovering in Turfan that needs to scout his southern cities. Actually, a few more ships inside the ring wouldn't go astray, imho.

Good luck Merum, apart from your new laptop, how are you settling in?

 

[Perugia]

IMO we don't need destroyers but I really like the idea of transports + uraninum and oil denial. This role-reversal solves the problem of protecting our cargo and free's up our frigates & ironclads for other duties.

The extra cargo space and movement factor will help in the conquest of Hatty.

I agree that artillery is key to defeating Infantry so we need to generate some gold to upgrade a few of our collateral damage promoted cannon to artillery before they cross the border (minimum 2 per spearhead). These are the units to use in suicide attacks and they will have to be replaced through builds/upgrades. So we should plan on combustion in say 12 turns with the first transports available in 13 turns.

When attacking we should try to restrict the cannon to a bombard role and use artillery for collateral damage. Once combustion is in we will have the gold to upgrade the cannon which will be a fast way of moving materiel to the front line.

Specialists. At some point we need to turn off GP production (I am beginning to think even one more GP now is unlikely to help us with the possible exception of a GM). We will not need artists or scientists anymore and will only need engineers, priests and merchants if their yield is better than the best tile available.

 

[BLubmuz]

Absolutely agree with your last, Perugia.
Particularly, my goal for combustion are trasports, not destroyers, too expensive to upgrade and to build.

 

[Merum]

Ok, I got it. Hopefully can play late tonight.

 

[Sweetacshon]

What about changing civics? Drafting infantry at this stage might be very useful.

 

[Merum]

Hey guys,

I'm sorry to say this, but real life has thrown up on me a bit here, and if I'll be able to play at all, it will be on an airplane over the pacific. (Wonder how many SGOTM turnsets have ever been played that way)

Anyway, I'll leave it to the team, but I either need a swap, a skip, or a delay.

Sorry about this. Too much to do and not enough hours. :/

PS: I was thinking of changing civics and mass-drafting infantry myself, Sweetacshon. Good idea.

 

[Sweetacshon]

No hassles, I don't mind the delay, but it depends on how long... if you are going to take longer than, say, Monday, you should probably skip.

While we are on civics, are there any other changes we should make, say to combat WW and the emancipation blues?

 

[Perugia]

edit No one replied to myofer to play today so I've withdrawn it as I don't mind waiting. I'm still happy to swap with Merum - whatever the team want to do.

Here are my thoughts about civics. I think a few more turns with max affordable science and the current civics is good so we can get the most from Free Religions 10% science bonus & get to combustion before the anarchy.

Nationhood is good but we do not know Democracy so can't choose Emancipation and we are already running Police State for WW. Hatty will give us Democracy for AL but that's not good.

Besides Nationhood gives us +2 happy from barracks and can convert our remaining unhappy citizens (7 at the moment after allowing for barracks) into Infantry - making men of these layabouts!

It's a 3 turn revolution to change to Nationhood and we can also include one other civic change. We can change 3 civics for a 4 turn revolution and 4 civics in 5 turns.

Mercantilism looks good for its free specialist which effectively converts some Free Market commerce into hammers. Since we will be at war with everyone the no foreign trade routes penalty does not matter.

Theocracy would be good for the military but we would lose a few happy faces from multiple religions. We'd also lose 10% science but that's OK once were close to combustion.

Another option is Serfdom to speed up railroad construction but at the loss of pop rush. I don't think this is good because towards the very end Nationhood's ability to rush infantry will be limited by the 3 units per turn limit and even before that we need pop rush to get artillery and ships out quickly to keep the momentum going.

So what do you guys reckon

1) Theocracy + Nationhood (3 turns anarchy) (my recommendation)
2) Mercantilism + Nationhood (3 turns anarchy)
3) Theocracy + Nationhood + Mercantilism (4 turns anarchy)
4) Other options eg trade Al to Hatty for Democracy

BTW. Macau is a pain. Mao culture bombed it to 60%, it's on a hill and once we DoW it will break our communications to the North. We need to stop the AI re-settling future razed cities especially hills! Luckily there's only one infantry deending it and it's too small to pop rush.

 

[Sweetacshon]

You offered to play, Perugia? Well, as I said, if it gets to Monday I think you should play it, we aren't in any particular rush to play, ie equal or ahead of other teams, so ... it depends on Merum. OTOH, it sounds as if he is quite busy and wouldn't mind being skipped, so I'd support you playing on anytime from now, I suppose. It's up to you, captain

Nationhood is a given, merc.. well we won't need the trade routes as you said. Theo also sounds good, as science isnt an issue, and unhapppies will be dratfted. The question is when to change? I'm just not sure.

 

[Merum]

I'm more than happy to swap with you, Perugia. I'll be in my apartment in a few days, and can play after you. As distracted as I am right now, it's probably best if you take these critical turns, anyhow.

 

[BLubmuz]

I've just seen the last posts ...
For me is good
Perugia up
Merum on deck
Blubmuz

I can't see the benefits of Theocracy, we do not have sufficiently spread it in the ring continent.
In addition i can't see the benefits of a civic change: 3 turns of anarchy means loose 3 turns of production and we can't draft in anarchy.
If WW is a problem, with research shut off we can increase culture when we need it.
Eventually we can change to Nationhood if (or when) WW will be out of control.

 

[Perugia]

Ok I'll play before Merum but as we are not in any particular rush will take my time so as to not make any blunders.

I didn't explain it that well in #448 but we've already agreed to turn off science after combustion and I believe that is when we should begin trashing the economy and thus can afford to switch Bureaucracy and Free Market or Free Religion for more military friendly civics.

We would have a second civic change for free in the 3 turn revolution to Nationhood so what we need to do is decide which is best out of the other choices. Emancipation (with Democracy), Serfdom, Mercantilism or Theocracy.

I really don't think we should give up slavery for either emancipation or serfdom as we need to pop rush artillery and ships to complement the draft.

BLumbuz is right Theocracy won't do that much good in the ring continent (and it will do no good for the draft) but I think it's worth it for when we start pop rushing artillery in New Japan. With 6XP we can give them Barrage II for +10% vs gunpowder and +80% collateral damage.

Sweetacshon. Which do you prefer Merc or Theo?
BLumbuz are you suggesting an alternative to Theocracy?

 

[BrianS]

Sorry guys, I've been out of pocket this week and not very involved. It looks like you have a good plan in hand Perugia. I'd lean toward Theo and Nationhood. Maybe we can get a couple missionairies out in the meantime.

Unfortunately, I'm traveling again this week. I'll check in as I can, but it will be spotty.

 

[Sweetacshon]

I'm leaning towards Theocracy, only because we'll be whipping the hell out of our cities and so the specialist from Merc will be less effective... actually, maybe they'll be MORE effective.. I just don't know.. it's a close call. + 2XP across the board is pretty good, tho.

We have an invasion plan, but what about timing? Do we have enough troops to attack Mao now, or after Old Sarai at least? I think so, but we'll need a few turns to prepare: a small stack for Macao, the ironclad joining the north fleet, the frigate in the inner sea has to scout his inner cities just incase he has a suprise.

So when and in what order do we attack Mao, make Biz war, and change civics? IIRC biz and mao are friendly, so we'll have to get him to DoW before we attack Mao, just in case. This means that we'll have .. what, about another 5-6 turns until we declare on Biz? So where do we fit in the anarchy... before attacking Mao, after mao and before biz, or after biz when we have 2 wars?

 

[Perugia]

We have an invasion plan, but what about timing? Do we have enough troops to attack Mao now, or after Old Sarai at least? I think so, but we'll need a few turns to prepare: a small stack for Macao, the ironclad joining the north fleet, the frigate in the inner sea has to scout his inner cities just incase he has a suprise.

So when and in what order do we attack Mao, make Biz war, and change civics? IIRC biz and mao are friendly, so we'll have to get him to DoW before we attack Mao, just in case. This means that we'll have .. what, about another 5-6 turns until we declare on Biz? So where do we fit in the anarchy... before attacking Mao, after mao and before biz, or after biz when we have 2 wars?

OK to start I'd just say that Hatty seems to be headed down the space line so may avoid AL and hopefully we will be up to nothing better than SAM infantry. Mao already has infantry so should be attacked asap.

I agree we have enough for him once we are healed up after Old Sarai (which fell without loss). I'm planning to rush barracks in Karakorum + Turfan and a drydock in Samarqand to remove any 0 culture starvation troubles and start spamming units in the locality. I'd be happy to have a phoney war for a few turns to draw his spare units out of his borders where we can use the road/rail network.

We are short of modern units in the Panama, Huamanga, Niani triangle. So I'm building a galleon to ferry units from Santiago to Huamanga from where they can head North (Mao) or East (Biz).

I've already made Biz DoW on KK and Hatty and his SoD in Gao set sail and headed east . The AI is really stupid as it moved the stack a mere 4 tiles by sea when it could have moved 10 tiles using the extensive German rail network .

I'll be following them and see if they get weakened attacking KK or Hatty and with luck will be able to block there return to Germany with our "scouting" force that will be deployed to their rear. We are also about to drop our first units in Dortmund.

I think Biz gets DoW'd when his SoD is in a compromised situation outside his borders (we can really hurt them with collateral damage artillery) and we have enough at Tiwanaku, Niani + the inner sea to defend. We can afford to wait all the time there are Mongolian cities to attack while we earn XPs from KKs obsolete stuff and work on a railroad from Dortmund.

So in summary I reckon the timing goes something like this 1) DoW on Mao (4 turns). 2) DoW on Biz (8 turns). 3) Learn combustion (13 turns). 4) Upgrade key galleon to transport (13 - 14 turns). 5) Change civics (15 turns).

 

[BLubmuz]

My doubt is about change civics.
If we do, units in new japan and in the few Christian cities in the ring cont. gain an amazing 6XP (barrage 2 is for melee, barrage 3 for gunpowder).
I think the best promotion for artillery units are Barrage 1 + CR1.
The counterside is that we'll have more WW problems in the ring continent: with free religion we have an happy face for every religion in a city.
Of course, with research shut down, we can increase culture, and police state helps.

The other counterside is that we have 3 or 4 turns of anarchy, loosing 1 unit per every high-production city: in addition, we can't draft in anarchy.

In conclusion, if it was on me, i'll avoid to change civics.

Question: what did you gave to Biz to DoW on 2 civs?

 

[Perugia]

BLumbuz I gave Biz assembly line as planned. We are not running nationhood at the moment so need 3 turns of anarchy to get it if that's what the team want.

I stop for the night now because I have sight of all Mao cities. He has 3 infantry and 1 cannon/artillery in most cities which is no surprise BUT he has 14 infantry, 4 artillery and 5 cavalry hidden in Guangzhou and Beijing along with some additional naval factors. Leaving behind his defense that's about 7 infantry and 2 artillery he can come after us with and building.

We should be able to handle his land units given a sound defense in Turfan while we take out Macao and the island city and bring the railroad up through Panama.

Our inner sea ironclads can handle either war with Mao or Biz but not both so they need reinforcement or we'll lose Kyoto or Surf n Turf to Mao. Luckily combustion is only 6 turns away so we will have Transports to blockade the gap in the donut and prevent his ships from entering. I'm preparing some galleons in Timbuktu etc for this.

KK needs to be eliminated asap so we gain happiness in Karakorum we have armies outside 2 of his cities now so it won't be long. BTW This is going to be real slow - let me know if that's a problem.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Not a problem at all. Best of luck, mate.

 

[BLubmuz]

Since i've never used Nationhood nor Theocracy in my games, i did a test to see how they work, then:
The draft is independent from what you are producing, the number of units depends from the city size (s.6 no, s.9 1 unit, s.13 2 units).
Drafted units have half XP than a normal unit, then in this case Theo is useless (3 XP opposed to 2 without it), otherwise it gives 6 XP, good.
Of course every draft causes unhappiness and can be used only for Infantry.

edit: I've seen your 457, Perugia: do you propose to wait until conbustion to DoW on Mao?
please confirm, i'm not sure to have correctly understood your post.

Time (in RL) isn't a problem, in game is.

 

[Perugia]

Thanks everyone for the vote of confidence in the time issue.

BLumbuz. To clarify what I'm proposing. We should DoW on Mao before combustion as soon as our artillery/infantry stack is near Macao. If we delay there will be a 3rd defender there.

I'll move some ironclads & frigates to control the ring gap and protect our inner sea cities. This will temporarily leave Mao in charge of most of the 'arctic ocean' (until our 2 galleons at Samarqand become transports).

I believe this is OK as we will have warning if he tries to land between Xian & Samarqand especially as the neutral territory around the ruins of Old Sarai is a nice buffer zone that's no more of a threat than a direct assault towards Turfan.

Before DoW I'll also ensure we have an escorted 3 worker railroad gang north of Macao.

If anything gets delayed it wil be the war on Biz. In fact it might be an idea to attack Hatty first as she is more advanced. Either way as long as we declare war before Biz & Hatty make peace we get mutual military struggle diplo points (This is useful because we wil lose our current ones with Biz after KK is gone).

Your tests on Natiohood & Theocracy are excellent. I didn't know about the unhappiness that makes it not so useful. Can you remind me how many unhappy faces are produced when drafting 2 or 3 units and how many pop points are consumed.

I knew aboout the 1/2 XP but we will still be building a lot of units which will get 6XP due to Theocracy.

A city only needs a barracks to produce 2/2XP draft units which can be used for first wave attacks behind the artillery where to use a 4/5XP units would be a waste.

It does mean we should try to draft in non-christian cities 2/2XP and try to poprush in christian cities 6/5XP to get the max benefit out of both civics.