Does settling on the gems really help? If we do, our first citizen would be working a 1 coin tile unless something else good really appears out of the fog. So we are still only getting 3 coin. If we settle N of sheep, then we can still work the 2 coin gems (they are within the starting city boundary) with our first citizen, plus the 1 coin from city site for 3 coin. Then, once we have a worker, the gems should be the first improvement. Also, we lose the hammers from the mine if we settle on the gems.
SGOTM 02 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
Sweetacshon: Welcome aboard, me droog! 
Regarding the settling: I really favor settling across the river, 1N of the sheep. It's coastal, gives us access to all three resources, and who knows what's north of the site. Could be even more gems, or something else. I understand the impact on research, but I think it's a better spot in the long-term.
Once we get mining, we can offset the research hit. Then it's a bit of the old in-out for the rest of the world.
Regarding the settling: I really favor settling across the river, 1N of the sheep. It's coastal, gives us access to all three resources, and who knows what's north of the site. Could be even more gems, or something else. I understand the impact on research, but I think it's a better spot in the long-term.
Once we get mining, we can offset the research hit. Then it's a bit of the old in-out for the rest of the world.
Doom Train
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2002
- Messages
- 204
We ll need early archery in order to deal with barbarians as BrainS pointed out. If there horses nearby barbarians should't be a problem for long time bu we ll need AH
As i see can from the SS Blumbuz moved warrior to hill and settler to 2W of warrior. but Settler has 1 move point left, since in the next turn warrior will move to second hill settler should use its spare move point to head forest tile 1E of its current location. In the next turn let warrior to move next hill, we ll settle 1N of sheep if there is nothing behid that hill...
As i see can from the SS Blumbuz moved warrior to hill and settler to 2W of warrior. but Settler has 1 move point left, since in the next turn warrior will move to second hill settler should use its spare move point to head forest tile 1E of its current location. In the next turn let warrior to move next hill, we ll settle 1N of sheep if there is nothing behid that hill...
Perugia
Prince
OK there seems to be agreement to settle 1N of the sheep as long as nowhere better appears out of the fog. We have 3 workable resources and a river plains plus at least 2 forests in the 9 tiles so I don't see any concern in getting culture. Surely we can actually wait for a religious building or library and can forget about an obelisk. Build order will be something like worker > warrior > warrior > warrior
As we have Kyoto we can have more than the normal military in the new city without unit maintenance costs (approx 8 units and we only need one warrior in Kyoto).
The settler can achieve a little scouting for us on its way to the site. This turn it can join the warrior and the following turn move 1N of the gems which will reveal some tiles to the NE before. The warrior should obviously head to the next hill in its next turn and then perhaps circle around the city it will need to stay close to defend while we are building the worker. If both units reveal no new resources Blumbuz can make the final decision about city location on the third turn and move the settler 1W and found on the third turn.
Although the gems gives +2 commerce, the city should work the sheep so it can generate 6 production to pop the worker in 15 turns.
Mining will be learnt in 11 or 12 turns depending on whether we get -7 or -6 maintenance as follows: Research for the first 3 turns will be at 100% science (mining will be due in 8 turns) and provide 30 beakers but then we will take the research hit down to 5 or 6 bpt so moving mining out to 8 or 9 turns for the remaining 45 beakers.
One nice thing about Japan is if our worker has nothing to do cos we don't yet know the techs for our other resources we can build roads into the forest which will help our military and the worker returning to the forest to chop it.
As we have Kyoto we can have more than the normal military in the new city without unit maintenance costs (approx 8 units and we only need one warrior in Kyoto).
The settler can achieve a little scouting for us on its way to the site. This turn it can join the warrior and the following turn move 1N of the gems which will reveal some tiles to the NE before. The warrior should obviously head to the next hill in its next turn and then perhaps circle around the city it will need to stay close to defend while we are building the worker. If both units reveal no new resources Blumbuz can make the final decision about city location on the third turn and move the settler 1W and found on the third turn.
Although the gems gives +2 commerce, the city should work the sheep so it can generate 6 production to pop the worker in 15 turns.
Mining will be learnt in 11 or 12 turns depending on whether we get -7 or -6 maintenance as follows: Research for the first 3 turns will be at 100% science (mining will be due in 8 turns) and provide 30 beakers but then we will take the research hit down to 5 or 6 bpt so moving mining out to 8 or 9 turns for the remaining 45 beakers.
One nice thing about Japan is if our worker has nothing to do cos we don't yet know the techs for our other resources we can build roads into the forest which will help our military and the worker returning to the forest to chop it.
Perugia
Prince
I missed the settler move this turn, 1E is good as the settler gets the option to move NE or SE from there.Doom Train said:We ll need early archery in order to deal with barbarians as BrainS pointed out. If there horses nearby barbarians should't be a problem for long time bu we ll need AH
As i see can from the SS Blumbuz moved warrior to hill and settler to 2W of warrior. but Settler has 1 move point left, since in the next turn warrior will move to second hill settler should use its spare move point to head forest tile 1E of its current location. In the next turn let warrior to move next hill, we ll settle 1N of sheep if there is nothing behid that hill...
So if we find horses we should research AH and build chariots otherwise archers. Therefore we should go for hunting as it allows AH or Archery. This also makes send on the worker front as mining > AH > Agriculture ties in with the difficulty the worker has in building the improvements 6, 8 & 10 turns AFAIR. That allows more roads to assist our anti-barb campaign.
Perugia
Prince
Blumbuz. A quick reminder you have to play on from the position shown in the SS. You should have saved the game after moving the units. If you did not save just repeat the moves. Don't forget to select a tech to research, it looks like were going for Mining.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
So, we all agree to settle 1N of sheep.
Production queue: warrior first, but when we'll reach size 2 switch to worker (I used this in my last GotM ant it pays, you delay the worker only 5 turns and you got an extra coin when you reach size 2).
Mining first, then AH is OK (food bonus + 2 coins from sheep)?
I was forgetting our handicap capital: WB then warrior
When the first warrior is completed, what about our cheap barracks? we can promote warriors with cover, so they got a better chance against archers.
And, yes, Oracle could be a problem unless we get marble, but let's talk about this after my save is posted.
15 turns if i'm not wrong?
I wait for your comments and i'll play tomorrow if i'll get them, plan to post the save saturday.
Ciao to all and a welcome to our new team member.
PS sorry for my poor english, but I hope you can understand me anyway.
Production queue: warrior first, but when we'll reach size 2 switch to worker (I used this in my last GotM ant it pays, you delay the worker only 5 turns and you got an extra coin when you reach size 2).
Mining first, then AH is OK (food bonus + 2 coins from sheep)?
I was forgetting our handicap capital: WB then warrior
When the first warrior is completed, what about our cheap barracks? we can promote warriors with cover, so they got a better chance against archers.
And, yes, Oracle could be a problem unless we get marble, but let's talk about this after my save is posted.
15 turns if i'm not wrong?
I wait for your comments and i'll play tomorrow if i'll get them, plan to post the save saturday.
Ciao to all and a welcome to our new team member.
PS sorry for my poor english, but I hope you can understand me anyway.
Perugia
Prince
@BLumbuz. I think waiting until size 2 for the worker is a bad idea as we will not get an extra coin at size 2 while building the worker as we will want to work the rice which is not on the river.
Whats more any delay in producing the worker potentially delays every improvement the worker makes over the whole game.
My calculations show it takes 6 turns longer to produce the worker and costs us 11 coin.
That's 6 turns before we have the gem mine = 6 hammers + 30 coin
6 turns before we have the sheep pasture = 12 food + 6 coin
etc
etc
etc
I also think we should start the worker before the warrior, otherwise we will learn even more techs that we can't use. In 17 turns we will know both mining and the wheel so need the worker to start mining and roading.
Yes, 1N of sheep is agreed (unless something is hidden behind the other hill).
Mining first then well need Hunting for AH (BTW AH only give +1C from sheep)
Agree about capital WB then warrior and 15 turns.
Whats more any delay in producing the worker potentially delays every improvement the worker makes over the whole game.
Spoiler Calculation :
That's 6 turns before we have the gem mine = 6 hammers + 30 coin
6 turns before we have the sheep pasture = 12 food + 6 coin
etc
etc
etc
I also think we should start the worker before the warrior, otherwise we will learn even more techs that we can't use. In 17 turns we will know both mining and the wheel so need the worker to start mining and roading.
Yes, 1N of sheep is agreed (unless something is hidden behind the other hill).
Mining first then well need Hunting for AH (BTW AH only give +1C from sheep)
Agree about capital WB then warrior and 15 turns.
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
Merum said:Then it's a bit of the old in-out for the rest of the world.
Let's not forget the ultra-violence!
I agree with all those build and tech choices. Good one, team! How did you guys go in SGOTM1?
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Perugia, you're right about the "rice +(no) coin" so, nothing to complain, worker first.
And of course we'll need hunting for AH.
Only in case warrior on hill SE discovers something interesting i'll discuss the location for Osaka.
And of course we'll need hunting for AH.
Only in case warrior on hill SE discovers something interesting i'll discuss the location for Osaka.
Perugia
Prince
We did alright and managed a Diplo win though we weren't the winners that went to Peanut with a Domination. They are top players including Staff members. Its well worth reading their thread.
For instance today I found out that they went for a War Chariot rush on Cathy, just like us, and WC attacks on Moscow went better then we expected because when a unit fights a second time in a turn it gets -20% modifier so that explains why it's good to send in suicide units before the main assault and 2 WCs were good enough to defeat 1 fortified archer.
They also mange the team business in a very effieicent manner.
For instance today I found out that they went for a War Chariot rush on Cathy, just like us, and WC attacks on Moscow went better then we expected because when a unit fights a second time in a turn it gets -20% modifier so that explains why it's good to send in suicide units before the main assault and 2 WCs were good enough to defeat 1 fortified archer.
They also mange the team business in a very effieicent manner.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
Sweetacshon said:Let's not forget the ultra-violence!
I agree with all those build and tech choices. Good one, team! How did you guys go in SGOTM1?
You're welcome to viddy our SGOTM1 thread now that the game is over.
(You and I are going to get on just fine, I think, although most of the rest of the thread will probably wonder what the hell we're talking about.)
@Perugia: I think that as the skills of our team improve, we'll need to spend a bit less time on between turn planning, and we'll hum along just fine too. For now, It's good for us to discuss our strategies a bit more in depth. If we could have done anything different last game, I would have liked to move along a bit faster(although I know my 4 week jaunt to China didn't help that), but at least we got done in time.
The thread that intrigued me was the rat pack, who managed to end up at war with India. Their thread was an interesting read.
Perugia
Prince
I'll have a look at rat pack, thanks for the pointer.
BTW I now had a chance to look at the test saves BrianS made. I was specifically interested in the maintenance cost for Osaka. What I found may be useful.
First I checked that founding in place indeed costs -7 maintenance. On the first map I found I could not move in the right direction because of the ocean but on the second map moving the settler just 1 tile East reduced the cost to -6 maintenance and moving 6 tiles East gave -5 maintenance.
If this is reflected in the actual SGOTM, our plans for moving the settler E look good and our favoured spot should cost -6. We should look to found our third city 4 or 5 tiles further E if at all possible.
BTW I now had a chance to look at the test saves BrianS made. I was specifically interested in the maintenance cost for Osaka. What I found may be useful.
First I checked that founding in place indeed costs -7 maintenance. On the first map I found I could not move in the right direction because of the ocean but on the second map moving the settler just 1 tile East reduced the cost to -6 maintenance and moving 6 tiles East gave -5 maintenance.
If this is reflected in the actual SGOTM, our plans for moving the settler E look good and our favoured spot should cost -6. We should look to found our third city 4 or 5 tiles further E if at all possible.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
On turn 3 the situation is changed, so i need the team opinions:
1 - Start research mining, as planned, move warrior on hill E, as in the ss I posted, settler NW-E
2 - warrior hill SE (more gems and gold, oasis) decided to delay Osaka, settler S-SE
between turns meet Isabella of Spain, a scout coming from north (has to be very close)
3 - warrior S, second oasis ... see ss
View attachment 135512
at this point Osaka north of sheeps as planned is not the best choice
we got 2 options:
1) settle in the ph S of gold, start with barracks and at s2 switch to worker
2) settle in the "blue circle", start with worker
I decided this settler's move because we loose only 2 turns to settle where planned, but, having some (eventually) better choices, we're ready to them
I've also noticed that is not possible "go around" with the minimap, so probably we are in a "inner sea" map
At this point i'll wait for your opinions until 8PM GMT, after that i'll go for option 1.
Since this is my first SG I hope this is the correct way to proceed.
Is it correct to replicate all the moves (easy, i got notes) starting from the initial save, or save and load this turn?
The last 3 posts (Perugia/Merum/Perugia) are a bit cryptic for me: some explanation is welcome
Another thing: I'll be in vacation from 14 to 19 (not planned before)
1 - Start research mining, as planned, move warrior on hill E, as in the ss I posted, settler NW-E
2 - warrior hill SE (more gems and gold, oasis) decided to delay Osaka, settler S-SE
between turns meet Isabella of Spain, a scout coming from north (has to be very close)
3 - warrior S, second oasis ... see ss
View attachment 135512
at this point Osaka north of sheeps as planned is not the best choice
we got 2 options:
1) settle in the ph S of gold, start with barracks and at s2 switch to worker
2) settle in the "blue circle", start with worker
I decided this settler's move because we loose only 2 turns to settle where planned, but, having some (eventually) better choices, we're ready to them
I've also noticed that is not possible "go around" with the minimap, so probably we are in a "inner sea" map
At this point i'll wait for your opinions until 8PM GMT, after that i'll go for option 1.
Since this is my first SG I hope this is the correct way to proceed.
Is it correct to replicate all the moves (easy, i got notes) starting from the initial save, or save and load this turn?
The last 3 posts (Perugia/Merum/Perugia) are a bit cryptic for me: some explanation is welcome
Another thing: I'll be in vacation from 14 to 19 (not planned before)
BLubmuz
You can save during your turn and load that save later to play the remainder of the turns. No need to finish your turn in one setting. You just can't go back and re-load that save if you've since made some
moves and want to try something different.
You can also post your save mid-turn if you want people to see the whole situation. It wouldn't be necessary at this point in the game when the screenshots tell all, but later in the game there's more to the picture than a ss can capture.
I'm probably missing something obvious, but why would start a barracks instead of a worker for option 1?
The blue circle city is an unbelievable site. It has 5 resources we can see in the fat cross, and there are still 4 tiles in the fog. Also, it's on fresh water, so it gets a health bonus and no roads will be necessary for trade with other cities on the river (roads will be tough to keep early with raging barbs).
The thing I like about the plains hill is city defense. Also, it allows us to share this resource rich area among a couple cities. But it lacks navigation and the health bonus of the river, so I'd be inclined to go with the blue circle. Also, many of the tiles that will be in the plains hill city are still in the fog. Should we move the settler there to see what he can see?
I like your request for comments with an 8 pm GMT deadline to play your remaining turns. That's a good approach.
You can save during your turn and load that save later to play the remainder of the turns. No need to finish your turn in one setting. You just can't go back and re-load that save if you've since made some
moves and want to try something different.You can also post your save mid-turn if you want people to see the whole situation. It wouldn't be necessary at this point in the game when the screenshots tell all, but later in the game there's more to the picture than a ss can capture.
I'm probably missing something obvious, but why would start a barracks instead of a worker for option 1?
The blue circle city is an unbelievable site. It has 5 resources we can see in the fat cross, and there are still 4 tiles in the fog. Also, it's on fresh water, so it gets a health bonus and no roads will be necessary for trade with other cities on the river (roads will be tough to keep early with raging barbs).
The thing I like about the plains hill is city defense. Also, it allows us to share this resource rich area among a couple cities. But it lacks navigation and the health bonus of the river, so I'd be inclined to go with the blue circle. Also, many of the tiles that will be in the plains hill city are still in the fog. Should we move the settler there to see what he can see?
I like your request for comments with an 8 pm GMT deadline to play your remaining turns. That's a good approach.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
BrianS,
thanks for your answer.
Yes, the "blue circle" is a wonderful site, but ph gives +1H/turn and a better defense, as you said, and because of this i'm undecided.
The reason to delay the worker if on ph site is simple:
starting with barracks gives you 3F+2C/turn, with the city growing in 11 turns.
ASA the city grows at size 2, switching to worker give us 4F for build the worker, and a total of 4C/turn, without compt the city tile; also, when the worker builds the mine, we can immediately start to work it and still grow, otherwise we'll have to wait to reach size 2.
this is driving me for option 1, and build our next city in in a tile close to the "blue circle".
If we'll survive to do this, because in the meantime i played a test game, and the barbs are HORDES, starting with warriors, so the barracks would be mandatory to promote warriors with a mix of cover and shock - i guess we'll need no less than 8 units to protect our city and improvements.
also, after mining-H-AH, i suggest to research archery, then BW.
and this is another point for option 1 ... more hammers here.
Oracle, goodbye.
thanks for your answer.
Yes, the "blue circle" is a wonderful site, but ph gives +1H/turn and a better defense, as you said, and because of this i'm undecided.
The reason to delay the worker if on ph site is simple:
starting with barracks gives you 3F+2C/turn, with the city growing in 11 turns.
ASA the city grows at size 2, switching to worker give us 4F for build the worker, and a total of 4C/turn, without compt the city tile; also, when the worker builds the mine, we can immediately start to work it and still grow, otherwise we'll have to wait to reach size 2.
this is driving me for option 1, and build our next city in in a tile close to the "blue circle".
If we'll survive to do this, because in the meantime i played a test game, and the barbs are HORDES, starting with warriors, so the barracks would be mandatory to promote warriors with a mix of cover and shock - i guess we'll need no less than 8 units to protect our city and improvements.
also, after mining-H-AH, i suggest to research archery, then BW.
and this is another point for option 1 ... more hammers here.
Oracle, goodbye.
OK, I see your points for option 1. How far along will barracks be when city grows to size 2? Would it make more sense to build another warrior first? I see you ran into the same barbarian problem that I saw, and I just want to make sure we don't lose Osaka - it could easily happen.
Perugia
Prince
I really like the blue circle. The 2 gem mines mean that we should be able to keep research of worker technologies ahead of the workers ability to use them ans this have time to develop other techs that give our cities better things to build. The settler should head there by the fastest route which is NE> NE > found Osaka.
I do not see the benefit of the plains hill as we can't afford to let the barbarians pillage our resources which they will do if we sit tight on top of the hill. We can fortify archers on the hills to stop barbs approaching from that direction using units and terrain that gets a bonus. The forest hill is awesome in this respect.
In fact I think we should restrict our improvements to our side of the river and concentrate our fog busters there we can then intice the barbarians to attack us across the river. Eventually we can found a second city on the other river to take advantage of the sheep and FP we can see there plus whatever is still hidden in the fog and move our hill archers to the other side of that city.
The river can also act as defense against Isabella if she is to the North, while we learn the technologies we want to move over to war mode. She is not to be trusted unless you have her religion.
There are 3 tiles inside the initial culture boundary that we can usefully mine and the hill 1SW of Osaka needs a road+mine to assist unit movement to the SW (we do not want o wast a worker turn moving back there later) so we do not need any other worker technologies for some time (20+ turns) after we produce the first worker. We should time the research of AH accordingly.
We need to health bonus of the river so we can grow the city to its maximum when we go to war. This should be easy if we build a granary and eventaully some farms supported by the food bonus resources of the rice, sheep, flood plains and oasis. Unhappiness does not matter as we should be aiming for LARGE cities as for each 4 pop points we have we can support 1 unit and we will want a large army.
With our worker busy on 3 mines we will have time for some more strategic techs. Writing and alphabet will be good so we can start a Library and trade with the AI which will be good for both Osaka and Kyoto and provide the culture growth.
If we are not going for the Oracle and the chance of one of the early religions we should concentrate on being first to Code of Laws for the free missionary.
It is probably a good idea not to trade with Isabella as it is hard to become her friend so she will be an early target for elimination. We should try to keep just a few friends, preferable not directly adjacent and that are friendly with each other.
As I said we should time completing AH for when our worker has built the three mines and some military roads.
The techs I would like are H, BW, Pottery, AH, CoL, Alphabet. We should then be able to trade for many of the cheaper techs we need so we can build monasteries. DO NOT GET MASONRY.
I do not see the benefit of the plains hill as we can't afford to let the barbarians pillage our resources which they will do if we sit tight on top of the hill. We can fortify archers on the hills to stop barbs approaching from that direction using units and terrain that gets a bonus. The forest hill is awesome in this respect.
In fact I think we should restrict our improvements to our side of the river and concentrate our fog busters there we can then intice the barbarians to attack us across the river. Eventually we can found a second city on the other river to take advantage of the sheep and FP we can see there plus whatever is still hidden in the fog and move our hill archers to the other side of that city.
The river can also act as defense against Isabella if she is to the North, while we learn the technologies we want to move over to war mode. She is not to be trusted unless you have her religion.
There are 3 tiles inside the initial culture boundary that we can usefully mine and the hill 1SW of Osaka needs a road+mine to assist unit movement to the SW (we do not want o wast a worker turn moving back there later) so we do not need any other worker technologies for some time (20+ turns) after we produce the first worker. We should time the research of AH accordingly.
We need to health bonus of the river so we can grow the city to its maximum when we go to war. This should be easy if we build a granary and eventaully some farms supported by the food bonus resources of the rice, sheep, flood plains and oasis. Unhappiness does not matter as we should be aiming for LARGE cities as for each 4 pop points we have we can support 1 unit and we will want a large army.
With our worker busy on 3 mines we will have time for some more strategic techs. Writing and alphabet will be good so we can start a Library and trade with the AI which will be good for both Osaka and Kyoto and provide the culture growth.
If we are not going for the Oracle and the chance of one of the early religions we should concentrate on being first to Code of Laws for the free missionary.
It is probably a good idea not to trade with Isabella as it is hard to become her friend so she will be an early target for elimination. We should try to keep just a few friends, preferable not directly adjacent and that are friendly with each other.
As I said we should time completing AH for when our worker has built the three mines and some military roads.
The techs I would like are H, BW, Pottery, AH, CoL, Alphabet. We should then be able to trade for many of the cheaper techs we need so we can build monasteries. DO NOT GET MASONRY.
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