SGOTM 02 - Fifth Element

[BrianS]

We need to keep in mind that as soon as we plop down that second city, our research slider will drop down to 40 or 50%, as we start with 0 coin and will be running a significant deficit. This makes our choice of first tech critical, as that tech will be at least partly researched at 100% while we are scouting second city location. Subsequent techs will take longer.

I think we start with Fishing and the Wheel. If we can assume we will find gold, then mining is the obvious first tech. Pottery will also be an important early tech, but offhand I'm not sure about the prereqs.

Has anybody looked at the Peanut thread from SGOTM1? They moved quickly and dominated well before a PA with Gandhi was even possible. Some of their mid-early moves weren't so hot (war with Cyrus), but they did a great job utilizing maces/knights and never got past that era. I can't recall the name of Toku's UU, but isn't it a mace replacement? Should we be gearing for a conquer victory with that unit?

One final thought - aggressive barbs can drive you nuts. As Blubmuz suggests, we don't want to spend too much time scouting, as we need some warriors pronto.

 

[Perugia]

Our UU is a Samurai which is a Maceman (8 1 70 +50% vs melee) with an additional 2 first strikes. This awesome combination means a lot less damage in normal fights and chances of wining 50/50s. We also have free C1 on all units thanks to the aggressive trait and cheapo barracks. Our best bet is to research Civil Service by the Code of Laws route so we can build courthouses in all cites. We could do with Forges as soon as possible to crank out buildings and units.

We are also organised - did you factor this into your worldbuilder analysis?

I think we should attempt an Oracle slingshot aiming for Metal Casting so we can complete forges, granaries, courthouses, barracks, libraries & hopefully monasteries in all cities by the time we learn Machinery & Civil Service. We can rush Civil Service using the Great Prophet we pop from the Oracle. Then let the Samurai loose.

We do indeed start with The Wheel so we know the location of horses and can start Pottery since we know Fishing. Our workers can then spam cottages and roads so we can afford to leave agriculture until we can trade for it.

Mining would be good if we can find gold and we will need it so we can find the copper but I think we can get an earlier benefit by just settling on the gold with a better food situation so pottery seems the best starting tech choice as we need cottages to avoid falling behind in the tech race. Once we have these techs we should start on Mysticism as early as we dare so we can get to Priesthood as early as we can and build the Oracle.

Overall we need the following essential techs (relative costs are shown thus)
edited after post #24 to include Alphabet

a) Pottery (80) > Mining (50) > Bronze Working (120)
b) Mysticism (50) > Meditation (80) > Priesthood (60) > Oracle
c) Mining and Mysticism > Masonry (80) (if we have Marble) > Oracle 1/2 cost
d) Pottery and Priesthood > Writing (120) > Alphabet (300)
e) Bronze Working (120) > Iron Working (200) > metal
f) Code of Laws (350) > Polytheism (100) > Civil Service (800, Great Prophet)
g) Metal Casting (450, Oracle) > Machinery (700)

As this is Monarch we will be lucky to get Civil Service or Machinery as the free Oracle tech and in any case going military mayhem we may as well get Metal Casting immediately so we can construct forges as early as possible so these can be used to build everything else at a 25% discount. We can then head at a leisurely pace towards Iron Working, Code of Laws and Machinery using Axes to obtain Iron if we need to.

Now the city with the Oracle will eventaully pop a Great Prophet that we can use to rush Civil Service as long as we don't have masonry and have meditation, polytheism, priesthood and code of laws.

 

[Merum]

I could be mistaken, but i thought Samurai was a knight replacement. I hope it's actually the Maceman.

 

[BrianS]

My worldbuilder exercise was done with Toku, so it would take into account the Organized trait.

Regarding essential techs, I don't see Alphabet on these lists. I think we may want to get there early so we can trade for some of these others.

I like idea of using Oracle to get MetalCasting if we can get the Oracle. We'll need to see what our second city site looks like before choosing a tech path, but assuming no marble I'd lean towards something like:

--Pottery, Mining, BW, Myst, Med, Priesthood (start Oracle), Writing, Alphabet

 

[Perugia]

I could be mistaken, but i thought Samurai was a knight replacement. I hope it's actually the Maceman.

You've been playing too much CivIII in which iSamurai was a knight replacement that didn't need horses.

Alphabet is indeed essential.

 

[Dolphan]

Lurker Comment

*Waves*

Good luck guys, I'll be rooting for you all the way! Give 'em samurai-flavoured hell!

 

[BrianS]

Mmmm, samurai-flavoured hell -- I'm thinking wasabi.

I've created a couple of very rough approximations of the start in worldbuilder. The emphasis is on very rough, as I did not try to exactly re-create the starting position. If you have a chance, please test these out to give us a sense of what it will be like to deal with extra maintenance, and whether that will make it more difficult to get the Oracle.

View attachment 135041
View attachment 135042

 

[Perugia]

The save is now available here and some teams have started.

Where possible we should all definitely try out BrianS's test saves in order to get a feel for the extra maintenance and whether getting the Oracle is at all possible with this start.

May I suggest that as a parallel activity we download the save and just move the warrior to the hill then post a screenie to assist in the discussion of our initial strategy.


Turn Order & Captaincy

Here is a provisional turn order for the 5 players who have checked in so far. Let me know if this is OK with your vacations, business trips etc by this Friday. At this stage we should play 15 turns each (once we have a plan).

BLubmuz (up)
Doom Train (on deck)
Merum
BrianS
Sweetacshon
Perugia (skip 13 - 27 August)

gustavoghe has not checked in so has to be considered MIA and has not been included on the rota, We therefor have room for up to 3 more players should anyone want to join us later.
From the SGOTM 01 past members, gskur has expressed an interest in rejoining if he can find the time. If he can then we have room.

Please note that I will not have internet access for a 2 week period in August and I started the last game so I have placed myself at the bottom of the list.

BrianS, I hope you can take on the role of Team Captain during this period.

 

[AlanH]

Hi guys. We have a late sign-up - Sweetacshon. It looks as if you are down one player, at five. With vacations fast approaching you may be interested in another player? Are you interested in taking him/her onto your strength?

 

[BrianS]

I'm happy to have another player join us Alan. I'd say bring on Sweetacshon.

 

[Perugia]

Another player is good. I'll send them a pm for good measure.

I've put Blubmuz up first but as this is their first SG it may be better for someone else to go first to show them the ropes.

Anyway can we get some action going. Someone, anyone download the save, post a "got it" and move the warrior onto the hill then post a screenshot please............

 

[BLubmuz]

OK guys, ready to begin and to play first (don't know how consider this ).
I'll try a short game with your saves, but now i'm in full GotM9, and if some of you is playing it, knows is not so easy.
Anyway i got the 2 tests made by BrianS (tx) and the official game start (not open yet).
Open the game and move warrior to the hill and then discuss the very early strategy is a good idea, and i wish suggest to move the settler 1NW, too I'm sure no one of us intends settle in place.
How does it works about our "meetings"?
to be sure we don't loose days (especially with Perugia leaving 13th), may i propose to post after a brief game played and with the screen took Friday 07/11?

One last thing to Perugia: may know why your nick is the name of an Italian city?

 

[BLubmuz]

Here is the ss:



almost no doubt: settle in gl N of sheep.
we'll have to learn all the 3 techs required to improve those tiles, mining first
while building a warrior and then a worker.
This will probably make difficult a CS slingshot, I usually skip some of those techs to achieve it.
Waiting your opinions

 

[Sweetacshon]

Hey guys, thanks for taking me late! You've added an Australian to the ranks (GMT +10). Just a note, I have exams in the nxt fortnight, so may have to skip depending on timing. Sorry.

As for the game, I like the idea of Oracle for metalworking, and GP for CS. Obviously samurai are the key here. The tech queue is good, but it depends on settlement. While 1N of sheep looks good, settling where we are now grabs the fish and rice, and is supreme for cottage spam, and it saves a few precious moves. We could grab pottery early and get the gems and sheep with city 3, maybe NE of gems? Just a thought.

 

[Perugia]

Thanks for making the start and getting a screenie. I tried to mouse-over it but nothing happened! What is the resource we revealed 1E of the sheep giving 2F2C.

Perugia is a space on a favourite game of mine called Machiavelli which itself is based on Diplomacy (you may have heard of that if not go to Wiki). The whole point of Machiavelli is to build and empire in and around Renaiisance Italy using the Diplomacy engine augmented with bribery and corruption which has elements similar to the Diplomat unit in Civ1 & 2. If you have enough ducats (gold) you can persuade your opponents units to join your side .

More about the online version of the game can be found here

 

[Sweetacshon]

1E of the sheep is gems.

 

[Perugia]

Hi Sweetacshon. Thanks for your first post and welcome to the team. Blumbuz, thanks for the screenie. I see from Sweetacshon post that the tile I was asking for is GEMS.

There are clearly 2 city sites in this area. The starting location of our settler has fish, rice, FP and is on a river. This will clearly make a good location. The site NW has access to the rice and brings in sheep and gems as well and is on a second river. Both sites have forests that can be chopped.

I am still very unsure whether we should delay founding with our settler at all as the -7 maintenance is going to severely limit our tech growth.

One other possiblilty is to found ON THE GEMS for an immediate TWO EXTRA COMMERCE in the city. Thus reducing the impact on founding on our research rate. This city will produce 4F 2H 4C from founding and thus pay towards its maintenance cost.

We would also get immediate access to the +1 happy faces as soon as we learn mining without the need for a worker or a mine.

The medium-term downside is that we lose the benefit of the gem mine (+1 hammers, +5 commerce) but to offset that we can build a cottage on the tile where we would otherwise have founded the city. As a fully developed town this will make up the difference long term.

 

[Perugia]

OK guys, ready to begin and to play first (don't know how consider this ).

. Download the save and make sure it loads into C-IV, then post a "got it" to say it loads and when you expect to play.

Normally we run 24/48 which means post the "got it" within 24Hrs of the last player uploading and then playing and uploading within 48Hrs of that. If that is not possible then ask for a skip stating when you can actually play.

You can take a "time out" within the 48Hrs if a key decision happens or real life issue. You can also just stop and pass the rest of your turn. At the end of your turn you post a turnlog describing what happens and explaining your decisions. You also conclude with a statement that describes what should happen next which is the basis of the short term plan for the next player.

How does it works about our "meetings"?

It's all very easy going, we just use the thread and try to reach an agreement on "The Plan". Every now and then someone will summarise the plan (ideally this should be the player up). The captain will often post a plan as well to try and describe the consensus and make "executive decisions" if there are a range of opinions. The "plan" (or lack of a plan) often has long term and short term elements as well as strategic, tactical and MM parts so can get hard to follow.

In whatever form the plan is evolving, the player up is empowered to interpret and follow the plan as they see fit. If the player up goofs or misses something the others will usually point it out later even if it's too late to change! This is the challenging part but does lead to learning and better play......

In order to actually move on, every now and then someone will (anyone should!) summarise the plan, ideally this should be the player up. The captain will often ratify the plan or post an "executive plan" as well to try and describe the consensus and make executive decisions if there are a range of conflicting opinions.

Because of time zones it's impossible to have coherent "meetings" and meet the schedule. For various reasons, some players post a lot more than others so flexibility is the key as is reading ALL the recent posts before and even during actual play.

to be sure we don't loose days (especially with Perugia leaving 13th), may i propose to post after a brief game played and with the screen took Friday 07/11?

I agree we should leave a little more time to try the test game and work out what impact Kyoto will have on maintenance and research rate. This should also give time to decide where, when and whether to settle and research path.

You should play your initial turns starting on Friday 11 August.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Settling ON the gems... outrageous!!
It's a good idea, but will really depend on whats east of the gems in the fog. I guess we have to decide now whether to wait and go and look, or just settle.

My only concern is giving up the +5 commerce, actually, I suppose it's only giving up 3... that can be so useful after simply building a mine, as opposed to waiting for cottages to mature. OTOH, the current position has no resources inside the cultural boundary, so wouldn't we need to build an obelisk (or other) to take advantage of these? The only real benefit, then, is the desert which gives 1 more than, say, working the rice. If we did settle 1N of the sheep, we'd have the option of switching between rice, sheep (and gems) to emphasize food or prod'n.

Actually, I think I'm successfully talking myself out of settling in place. I vote for scouting out the area and possibly taking 1Nsheep or gems.

 

[BrianS]

I tried 2 approaches (scouting for a site first game, and settling in spot second game) on test game 2 last night and found the following:

1. I was being somewhat reckless, but I essentially lost both games at around 2500 BC when barbarian archers knocked out my second city site. Apparently, with raging barbarians, there is no dancing around outside our cultural borders for a few hundred years. When you first see the barbs, they go straight for your cities. In the second game, I had 2 warriors defending the city, but they were unable to fend off the barbarian hordes. This has a couple implications: a. We should at least consider going for archery early; b. Early warrior scouting needs be close to the city so the warriors can go back quickly to defend; c. We will need lots of early defenders.

2. Given the above, I'm rethinking the Oracle. It requires a significant commitment of city resources which I think we will need for military instead.

3. It will be a little while before we have a worker. Therefore, we might consider researching Myst first. This will give us the ability to build obelisks early in our second city, which would not otherwise grow its cultural boundaries.

4. Settling the second city site did double the research time. When I settled at a -7 GPT maintenance hit, research slider dropped to 50%. At -6 GPT, research slider dropped to 60%. Settling on gems would help offset this.