SGOTM 02 - Fifth Element

I'd take something else along to seville - even an archer or warrior in case one of the swords is unlucky.

After pottery I'd be happy if we set science back to 0% to finance the war effort.

BLumbuz said:
A unit on a non-pillaged resource denies to work it, but the resource continues to be avaible
That's a stupid rule if ever. We can't risk it so I'd now be happy with pillaging the copper after all.
 
gl Merum

Everything said about MMing is sound, and the 2 spears in the build queue would be better as axe/sword if you are going to take Barca. It will take the stack (or part thereof) 6 turns to get to the mine... it seems likely that Izzy will make an axe or 2 before we can cut it off, so beware of that.
 
@Perugia & Team
In my last post on previous page, I posted a save with a reproductin of the know portion of the map.
If you are familiar with worldBuilder, you can try and see what happens.

Just put a spy in Madrid and the other spanish cities

to speed up things you can use gunships
.
anyway i made it firstly to try some combat options, and to verify if is better Cover or City Raider1

i have no time to upgrade and better test my save until tonight.
 
BLubmuz said:
anyway i made it firstly to try some combat options, and to verify if is better Cover or City Raider1
Combat with our axemen.

If the defenders are all archers then cover is best as 25% is subtracted from the archer's defensive bonus whereas with City raider1 only 20% is subtracted.

If there are a mix of archers and spearmen then cover is still best as the our axes get +50% vs spears.

If there are a mix of archers and axes defending then the situation gets very complicated. This is because our axes get a 50% bonus against defending axes which reduces the terrain, fortification and city bonuses bonus the defending axe gets by a factor of 2/3.

If these bonuses are small then if we have Cover an Axe will pop to the top of the defending stack negating our modifier and if we have Shock and archer will pop to the top again negating our modifier. In these circumstances City Raider is better as it cannot be denied by a balanced stack of counter units.

But if the terrain, fortification and city bonuses are large (75% or greater) then an archer will always pop to the top of the stack vs our axemen and cover again becomes favoured.

Combat with our swordsmen.

As long as the defenders are not axes then cover is best.

If there are defending axes then we will usually need to hold our swords back until the defending axes are eliminated or damaged. This is the weakness of swordsmen.

In these circumstances we might be more inclined to use cover promoted axemen in an attempt to bring the defending axes to the top of the stack so they get damaged by our axemen.

Our swordsmen get whatever promotion is best at the time they attack. This could be either cover, shock or CR1. CR1 is again better when choosing cover or shock would make a different unit type pop to the top of the defending stack.
 
I was busy 'til late yesterday, i've tried to test this morning.
usuing gunships and spies i saw this:
just keep a unit on copper denies to work, you must pillage it if you want the resource is not in the list.
I've put spies in every spanish city, to confirm this (before and after pillage the copper) in the meantime, the resource sharing of the coastal cities is confirmed, no roads needed (pillaged some).

Curiuos to hear news from the battlefield.
 
I can play later today and am happy to do the swap. I've got the save and will play.
 
Short story: We took 3 cities (Cordoba, Barcelona and Seville) in 10 turns. For reasons mentioned below, I did not take our mega stack to Madrid. I think this was the right decision, as it would have been suicided in Madrid. The copper was pillaged at the earliest opportunity, and Izzy's ability to make metal units is gone. She made very few when she had the opportunity to do so. There may be 1 or 2 left in Toledo, but all others have been killed.

BIG NEWS! We have met Bismarck, and he lives next to Kyoto. Finally, a trading partner. We need to explore his lands and see if he has any neighbors. I met him on turn 9 and have not completed any trades, although he is willing to make some trades for Compass if we want to give up that monopoly. (What, we have Compass? That's another story)

Inherited Turn - 185 AD
Move Spear to protect Toyota
Change builds in Osaka and Tokyo from Spears to Axes
Send Karate (who is fortified on hill south of Osaka) scouting west to make sure Izzie isn't gaining access to iron on West coast.
Send Sword out of Tokyo to guard quarry and to prepare for advance to Seville. I will muster troops there to send in to Seville. Send sword out of Osaka to join him.

Take Barcelona or move onto Madrid? Will decide next turn as stack has no movement left this turn, but I am leaning towards moving on to Madrid. I question whether our stack is up to taking Madrid as it is, but if we stop to take Barcelona, I'm confident we will not have enough remaining forces to take Madrid. Our SOD has 3 swords, 7 axes, 1 spear and 1 archer.

We have 338 gold in the bank, but at 0% research we're only making +4 GPT. This is astounding. I don't see much that can be done at this point except a little MM. I was able to add 1 GPT by MM'ing Osaka to work oasis instead of floodplain. I also removed 1 scientists in Kyoto and put him to work on fish. We already have 2 unhappy citizens, but I want to grow several more so we can whip the market. Currently, it would take 8 citizens to whip it. This also adds 2 GPT, so we are now at +7 GPT, although it does slow down COL, which is hopeless at this point anyway.

Boy could we use pottery to build some cottages!

Turn 1 - 200 AD
IBT - Izzy sends 2 archers out of Barcelona N towards Madrid. This leaves a chariot, spearman and archer in Barcelona. This makes Barcelona very tempting, plus it means that Madrid will be better defended than we expected. I think we are already thin to take Madrid on a hill with archers. I decide to take Barcelona and send a smaller stack to Madrid to take out the copper, scope the situation and do some pillaging.

The battle for Barcelona:
Promote sword to cover and attack Barcelona archer (75% odds)...and we win.
Promote sword to CR1 and attack Barcelona spear (88.7% odds)...and we win.
Attack remaining chariot with spear (99% odds)...and we win...and Barcelona is ours.
We capture a worker, but put him to sleep for the moment.

Send stack of 4 axes north to Madrid. Move 2 axes and an archer into Barcelona to defend our new prize.

Continue military movements to prepare for Seville. Also, move Toyota and spear SE. I either want to build shortcut for road between Osaka and stone quarry or mine on hill along river.

Date, who is scouting south of Toledo encounters a Spanish chariot.

Turn 2 - 215 AD

IBT - Chariot near Date disappears.

Date continues W to verify Izzy has no access to iron. Axe stack continues northern journey.

Turn 3 - 230 AD
IBT - Barb warrior appears S of Tokyo. Chariot re-appears near Karate. Karate takes out chariot and confirms that Iron is still unworked.

An Izzy axe appears north of Seville.

I start moving forces towards Seville from Barcelona.

Osaka axe->axe

Turn 4 245 AD
IBT - Izzy's axe moves next to Barcelona.

Axe stack continues north. Madrid's troops are now revealed, and surprisingly Izzy still has no axes. She has 1 spear and 7 archers. It is imperative to pillage the copper asap. The copper is guarded by 1 measly archer. Madrid has 60% cultural defense. Given this, I think the decision not to go after Madrid with our stack was wise. We would have suicided our entire stack before having any chance of taking out Izzy's archers. We now need a seige startegy for Madrid.



Barb archers advance towards axe on Osaka gold.

Turn 5 - 260 AD
That crazy Izzy. She's sending a galley south with an archer/settler pair.



Izzy's sole archer guarding the copper is taken out by an axe. I move another axe to the copper to protect our valiant warrior and move the remaining 2 axes to the forested tile 1 south of Madrid.

Izzie's axe moves to the cottage outside Barcelona. I decide to attack with our axe, even thought it has 50% odds. Even if it loses, we should do enough damage to take it out with one of our swords. Miraculously, it wins! Next turn, we will pillage Izzy's copper, and then NO MORE AXES!!

Barcelona comes out of revolt, and a library is started.

Turn 6 - 275 AD

The axe who took out the archer guarding the copper is promoted to CR1 and is allowed to rest to promote healing. The other axe pillages Izzy's copper. This was a timely move. Izzy still has no axes in Madrid.

The battle for Seville. Seville has only 2 archers, but it has walls and 50% cultural defense. We have 2 swords and axe on the jungle hill to the south, and a sword and 2 axes in the jungles to the west.

Following Perugia's advice, I promote the attacking swords to cover.

The first sword goes in with 65% odds...and wins.
The second sword goes in with 65% odds...and loses.
An axe goes in to mop up, and Seville is ours.



Our axe in Tokyo takes out the barb warrior that was threatening from the south, just for the experience.

Turn 7 290 AD
Our marauding axes pillage rice south of Madrid.
Great scientist is born in Kyoto. Choice is Academy or Compass. While I really like academies, I think Optics is very important to us this game, so I lightbulb him for compass. We'll get another for an academy before too long.

We now have plenty of cash to research COL and the war is going well, so I up our research to 100% at a cost of 63 GPT. COL is due in 7 and we have 596 in the bank. I decide that Cordoba is our next victim and start moving troops in that direction.

Osaka axe->axe

Turn 9 320 AD
Look who shows up...Finally a trading partner!


He lives south of Kyoto



I hold off on any trades until we can discuss as a group. This will result in delay of only 1 turn as I'd like to play my last turn to take Cordoba!

I awaken our Galley next to stone island and move it towards Bismarck. I also move our spare WB out of Kyoto to put it on scouting duty.

Turn 10 - 335 AD

An archer flees Cordoba towards Barcelona. OK, that leaves just 1 spear and 1 archer in Cordoba. I think we can handle that.

The battle of Cordoba
Sword 1 goes in at 93.7% odds...and wins.
The second sword goes in to take out the spear at 98% odds...and wins.



Sign OB with Bismarck and send WB into his waters to begin scouting. Continue to bring galley to Bismarck.

Back in Osakaland, move troops towards Toledo. I think the holy city would make a nice prize. Taking it also prevent Izzy from getting Iron.

Seville comes out of rebellion and I start it on library. It has no hammers in it and can be changed.

The rape of Madrid continues (also you can see Izzy's galley with archer/settler is still trying to figure out where to go).



And here is New Japan




Bismarck will give Pottery, Masonry, Agriculture, Polytheism, Meditation for Compass. Should we take it?
 
Here is the save

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Fifth_Element_SG002_AD0335_01.Civ4SavedGame

And here is the turnset log

Spoiler :
Turn 179, 185 AD: Isabella adopts Theocracy!

Turn 180, 200 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Archer (4.80)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Combat Odds: 74.9%
Turn 180, 200 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 180, 200 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 180, 200 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 180, 200 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 180, 200 AD: (City Attack: -10%)
Turn 180, 200 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman has defeated Isabella's Archer!
Turn 180, 200 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Spearman (4.60)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Combat Odds: 88.7%
Turn 180, 200 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 180, 200 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 180, 200 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 180, 200 AD: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman has defeated Isabella's Spearman!
Turn 180, 200 AD: Fifth Element's Spearman (4.40) vs Isabella's Chariot (2.00)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Combat Odds: 99.4%
Turn 180, 200 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 180, 200 AD: (Combat: -100%)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Isabella's Chariot is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Fifth Element's Spearman is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Isabella's Chariot is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Fifth Element's Spearman is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Isabella's Chariot is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Isabella's Chariot is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 180, 200 AD: Fifth Element's Spearman has defeated Isabella's Chariot!
Turn 180, 200 AD: You have captured Barcelona!!!
Turn 180, 200 AD: The borders of Surf and Turf have expanded!

Turn 182, 230 AD: Fifth Element's Karate (Axeman) (5.50) vs Isabella's Chariot (4.40)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Combat Odds: 74.9%
Turn 182, 230 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 182, 230 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Isabella's Chariot is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Isabella's Chariot is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Isabella's Chariot is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Fifth Element's Karate (Axeman) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Isabella's Chariot is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Fifth Element's Karate (Axeman) is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Fifth Element's Karate (Axeman) is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Isabella's Chariot is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 182, 230 AD: Fifth Element's Karate (Axeman) has defeated Isabella's Chariot!

Turn 183, 245 AD: The borders of Osaka have expanded!

Turn 184, 260 AD: Fifth Element's Aikido (Axeman) (5.50) vs Isabella's Archer (3.00)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Combat Odds: 98.2%
Turn 184, 260 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 184, 260 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 184, 260 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Fifth Element's Aikido (Axeman) is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Fifth Element's Aikido (Axeman) has defeated Isabella's Archer!
Turn 184, 260 AD: Fifth Element's Axeman (5.50) vs Isabella's Axeman (5.50)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Combat Odds: 50.0%
Turn 184, 260 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 184, 260 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 184, 260 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 184, 260 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Fifth Element's Axeman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Fifth Element's Axeman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Fifth Element's Axeman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Isabella's Axeman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Fifth Element's Axeman has defeated Isabella's Axeman!
Turn 184, 260 AD: You have trained a Axeman in Tokyo. Work has now begun on a Spearman.
Turn 184, 260 AD: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Fifth Element's Sushi II (Axeman) (9.75)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 184, 260 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 184, 260 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 184, 260 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 184, 260 AD: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 34 (66/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 34 (32/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 184, 260 AD: Fifth Element's Sushi II (Axeman) has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 185, 275 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Archer (5.70)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Combat Odds: 65.2%
Turn 185, 275 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: (City Attack: -10%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman has defeated Isabella's Archer!
Turn 185, 275 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Archer (5.70)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Combat Odds: 65.2%
Turn 185, 275 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: (City Attack: -10%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Isabella's Archer has defeated Fifth Element's Swordsman!
Turn 185, 275 AD: Fifth Element's Axeman (5.50) vs Isabella's Archer (0.96)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 185, 275 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Fifth Element's Axeman has defeated Isabella's Archer!
Turn 185, 275 AD: You have captured Seville!!!
Turn 185, 275 AD: Fifth Element's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 185, 275 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 185, 275 AD: Fifth Element's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 185, 275 AD: Socrates has been born in Kyoto!
Turn 185, 275 AD: Plato has been born in a far away land!

Turn 186, 290 AD: You have discovered Compass!
Turn 186, 290 AD: Taoism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 186, 290 AD: The Parthenon has been built in a far away land!

Turn 187, 305 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Barcelona!

Turn 188, 320 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Barcelona!
Turn 188, 320 AD: You have plundered 54 from the Camp!
Turn 188, 320 AD: You have trained a Archer in Tokyo. Work has now begun on a Spearman.

Turn 189, 335 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Barcelona!
Turn 189, 335 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Barcelona!
Turn 189, 335 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Archer (4.20)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Combat Odds: 93.7%
Turn 189, 335 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 189, 335 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 189, 335 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 189, 335 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 189, 335 AD: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 189, 335 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman has defeated Isabella's Archer!
Turn 189, 335 AD: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 189, 335 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Spearman (3.63)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Combat Odds: 98.7%
Turn 189, 335 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 189, 335 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 189, 335 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 189, 335 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Fifth Element's Swordsman has defeated Isabella's Spearman!
Turn 189, 335 AD: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Spearman!
Turn 189, 335 AD: You have captured Cordoba!!!
Turn 189, 335 AD: You have plundered 14 from the Pasture!


Merum, thanks for letting me have this bit of fun. You're up!
 
Great TS, Brian

Now we got a lot of promoted units, we can risk Madrid when they'll be healed, but we need a lot, and some will suicide - I estimate twice the defenders can work out.
Out of question wait for cats, we need it NOW!
We can suicide axes, keeping one for the spear and finish the job with swords.
It's important to keep a medic in the stack if things become difficult.
I suppose Toledo is not a problem, the "wheat city" must be left to Spain until the 2nd spanish war, then razed.

Bismark: why Compass and not alpha? he can have some tech we can't see that compass can buy (i bet he got MC, beeing industrious). OTOH without alpha he's not able to trade with other civs. - dilemma -

when our army will be sufficient for Madrid it's mandatory to start the Palace in Osaka

I've read S & P posts after this, and i agree that is better take Toledo now, granary or not.
Don't forget that the weakest a civ is, the best peace terms you can obtain.
Let's ask Calendar, and see what happens.
 
Good one, Brian! Your choices were pretty good, I must say. The libraries are a fair option, considering the area (did somebody wish for cottages earlier - it came true. Make another wish ;)).

We should definately take Toledo, but what about Santiago? It's not in a great position, and we could just raze it. Madrid would be tough, and we'll need quite a few units to get thru. 7 archers, 4 with CD and a spear on a hill! It's a while to cats, tho, so....??

As for the trade, we could really use some of those for our new religion (soon) and economy. The only drawback is the naval lead we'd give up. I think I'm in favour of the trade.

Well played and great writeup! :thumbsup:

EDIT: OK Santiago is for Izzy's exile while we rape her - tech speaking, of course. Then we needa bigger stack for Madrid.. your numbers sound about right Blubmuz. I've always been in favour of keeping alphabet exclusicely until I've met evryone and know where we stand techwise. It allows us to be more selective with trades.
 
Brian,

Thanks for a great write-up and turnset.

I think you might have made a small mistake on the last turn. If Toledo-Cordoba had a granary you should have delayed the capture of Toledo until after we made the trade with Bismarck. We will get pottery in the trade so if Toledo had a granary it would now be ours.

I might be making an unjust comment here as pehaps you looked in the city before capturing it and saw there was no granary. (If you didn't you could look back a a previous save and check).

Bismarck

With trade open, religion will soon spread to our island cities :).

We will have a dilemma about state religion and should probably agree to Bismarck asking us to switch to avoid -ve diplomacy points. This will assist in trading. He might be happy to let us have calendar if we switch from Christianity to Hinduism.

Sell fish to Bismarck for 2 gpt.

We should hang on to Alphabet for the reasons given by Sweetacshon. Our exploring WB and galley should try to find other trading partners beyond Bismarck's borders as a top priority rather than exploring all of Germany which can wait.

The trade on offer is quite fair BUT if we want to learn Civil Service using a Great Priest we should not take Masonry. Having no knowledge of Masonry prevents the Great Priest giving us Monotheism or TheologyOTOH since Izzy already knows all the techs up to Theology we can extort them from her and then any Great Prophet would still give us CS. This might be better as if we are running lots of scientists it might be hard to generate a Great Prophet even in the holy city.

edit

I agree on the idea that Izzy should be exiled to Santiago which should then be razed later.

As an alternative strategy to get more out of compass. We might decide to make peace with Izzy now for Polytheism (and Meditation if she has it + whatever else we can get). Then wait one or more turns to trade with Bismarck for something better. This would work well if we switch to Hinduism when it reaches Kyoto or Surf n Turf.

Izzy will give Meditation, Polytheism, 10g + 1gpt for peace and she will throw in Pottery, Agriculture or Masonry (She will not give Calendar). We can then redeclare after 10 turns, go back to pillage her copper and take out Madrid & Toledo then either make peace again or exile her to Santiago as planned.

Summary
Izzy is offering almost the same techs as Bismarck for peace whilst we retain our naval tech lead and the option to trade compass for something better after we switch state religion to Hinduism and the further possibilty there are other civs beyond Bismarck. I think we should pillage whatever we can outside Madrid then make peace with Izzy now for Meditation, Polytheism, Pottery, 10g & 1gpt and re-arm.

We have some high XP warriors and we have a lot of gold. This is great as if barbs threaten our cities we can upgrade these warriors, if the barbs do not threaten we can retain the gold. This means we can take most of our axes and swords up to Barcelona to form a megastack to capture Madrid. Madrid should be the first target as Toledo and Santiago are doing some fog busting for us for free.

So make peace and assemble a huge force 1NE of Barcelona then redeclare after 10 turns.
 
@Perugia
You mean Cordoba, not Toledo, right? We haven't taken Toledo yet,by the looks of things.

If Izzy has anything to offer, we could do peace now, but we seem to have the troops to push onwards for Toledo, and considering it's a holy city and near iron, I feel we should grab it soon.
 
Nice turnset BrainS.

Since we got 3 more cities in Osakaland, Palace necessary in Osaka in order to start research again. We should start production of Palace immedietly...
 
Yes I meant Cordoba (I have edited the post).

If everyone else likes to we could take Toledo and then make peace. It all depends if Izzy might throw in another tech if we do that ie Meditation, Poly, Pottery & Agri. Although it is the Holy city the only benefit we would get is the spy ability and we pretty much know the lay of the Spanish land already. We will not get any gold at the moment.

It's a shame the Izzy has not built the Church of the Nativity for us. I'm inclided to capture Madrid and Toledo in the same war for the following reasons:- While they are both Spanish there is a chance that the Oracle or Spanish priest GPs might spawn a Great Prophet which Izzy will send to Toledo to build the Church. OTOH when we capture both and build temples we can run some priests and do the same ourselves.

We are paying supply costs so Karate could be brought inside our borders or used to attack spain.
 
Perugia says: Izzy is offering almost the same techs as Bismarck for peace whilst we retain our naval tech lead and the option to trade compass for something better after we switch state religion to Hinduism and the further possibilty there are other civs beyond Bismarck. I think we should pillage whatever we can outside Madrid then make peace with Izzy now for Meditation, Polytheism, Pottery, 10g & 1gpt and re-arm.

This looks like a good plan, but I would like to take Toledo if we can before accepting peace. [EDIT: After re-reading the posts, I withdraw my request to take Toledo before peace. But I do want to make sure we pillage all the roads around the copper.] As to trading with Bismarck, the more I think about it, the more I would like to retain our naval tech lead. It looks like we're going to need a navy, and the extra movement points of a first circumnavigation will be very helpful. We should go for optics soon.

Sorry about the :smoke: move in Cordoba. I didn't even think of looking for a granary. I just checked the autosave, and there was no granary in Cordoba, so no harm no foul this time, but I wished I had thought of it.

Sweetacshon says: The libraries are a fair option, considering the area (did somebody wish for cottages earlier - it came true. Make another wish ).

Researching with axes works pretty well and is fun to boot :evil:

Perugia says: With trade open, religion will soon spread to our island cities .

We will have a dilemma about state religion and should probably agree to Bismarck asking us to switch to avoid -ve diplomacy points. This will assist in trading. He might be happy to let us have calendar if we switch from Christianity to Hinduism.

This is another reason for early optics. We'll need to get missionaries to New Japan and I think they will travel in caravels.
 
Got and opened the save.

My current plan is to pillage Madrid for the remaining three turns to COL (not going to pillage the hamlet), then extort as much as we can from Izzy (she might have something else to offer that becomes visible with COL). Then, see what Bismarck will offer for compass and maybe something we get from izzy.

Osaka can be stagnated (grows in 24) for another three hammers, and I intend to do that too, to pump out more axes for the second spanish war.

There's a barb sword approaching Osaka from the SE, and I'm going to bring Karate back to counter him, as well as saving support.

Here's something confusing:
Seville: Library 68 turns, whip cost 5 pop
Barcelona, Library 130 turns, whip cost 3 pop :WTH:

I'll post after the three turns, and then play the remainder of the turnset tonight.

Brian, thanks for the trade, and well played!

OK, here are the first 3 turns:

IT:

Move Karate back toward Osaka, on an intercept course with the barb sword.
Move the medic spearman toward Barcelona.
Stagnate Osaka by moving the citizen working the forest to the mine, picking up 3hpt

Kyoto would grow faster with a harbor. somthing to keep in mind.

Bismarck doesn't have 2gpt to offer for the fish??? I hold off on the trade.

Nothing else to do, so hit enter.

T1 350ACE

The barb sword disappeared back into the fog.
Osaka Axe>Sword
Whack Izzy's archer outside barcelona before it could pillage OUR new hamlet.
I notice that Madrid is actually settled on Stone. No wonder Izzy got pyramids.

T2

WB finds Mansa Musa(!) next to Bismarck. He's got tech out the wazoo (predicatbly). He's going to have to go quickly.
Pillage party continues around Madrid.
Units being sent to outside Barcelona to marshall for the 2nd war.

T3
We discover COL, and Mansa comes to us, offering Calendar and 60g for compass. I decline for now.
Sign OB with Mansa so our wb can continue scouting.

when I return, there will be a flurry of trading. First trades I plan to make are fish to Bismarck for silk, then crab or clam to Bismarck for 3gpt. Mansa will also give us his gpt for one of our health resources, but I'm not sure we want to give Mansa health. That guy is insane with growth and money. We should probably cultivate Bismarck to war on him. Mansa's already pushing his cultural borders.

I plan to play next at about 0400GMT, so let me hear what you think by then. I've put up the current save in case anybody wants to look at it.
 
Merum said:
Here's something confusing:
Seville: Library 68 turns, whip cost 5 pop
Barcelona, Library 130 turns, whip cost 3 pop :WTH:
There is a pop rushing bug that was fixed on standard but still present on epic. I'll try to investigate more. edit I think the bug only applies when you have a production bonus eg forge and I don't think we do. Could this simply be due to the number of hammers already invested at Barce being a lot more but current production being less?

Merum, I think you mean Kyoto will grow faster with a Lighthouse. We should add one to the queue.

The fishy trade is odd. 2gpt was definitely on the table when I loaded the save - I'll have another look.

BrianS said:
This is another reason for early optics. We'll need to get missionaries to New Japan and I think they will travel in caravels.
Yes - Missionaries will travel in caravels so we can unify religions. I agree optics should be researched real soon.

Merum - Well played on your turns so far. The plan seems sound. Unless Bismarck or Mansa have a tech we need right now I'd delay trading our naval tech lead for longer although there's no harm in arbritrage trading.

Resource trading with Bismarck is good - since we have 3 to offer but only need to give 2 try not to give him ones he has but are not hooked up - we need to grow him to counter Mansa. I think you are right about not trading health resources to Mansa unless we can get a large gpt (5+?) or Mansa has the resource but it's just not hooked up.

I can't load the save right now do we know any more about Bismarck & Mansa religiously.

Please continue the boat explorations to see if anyone lies beyond Mansa and try to reach the same longitude as new Japan for circumnavigation purposes.
 
Okay... the Bismark resource trades seem ok, but Mansa will have to be generous. Actually, check Bismark's relations with Mansa first.. that might give another reason not to trade.

Frankly, I just want to get Izzy out of the way so we can concentrate on bigger fish, but if she is offering the goods, take it and we can crush her soon enough. Basically, if you feel ready to take Toledo, do it, if not, peace.

I don't think Kyoto needs a l/h right now... it grows quickly enough, but if there is nothing else to build... (actually another galley probably wouldn't hurt, and we'll also need a courthouse if the palace is moving - but really it's up to you).

Oh yeah, if the whip in Barca seems a good deal, go for it! :)
 
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