SGOTM 02 - Smurkz

[AlanH]

Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 2 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

This game will be played in Civ4, patched to v1.61.

You are cast in the role of Tokugawa, mighty leader of the Japanese. Tokugawa's brother has left the island city of Kyoto to avenge the death of his wife and only son. He has travelled to a distant land without finding their murderer. So the brother of Tokugawa will settle and found a new Japanese colony, and the Japanese have sworn to conquer the rest of civilization in order to hunt down and destroy their enemy.

The game is on a Standard size fractal map, modified as only Gyathaar knows how, at Epic speed. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the fastest teams to achieve a Conquest victory. The number of AI rivals has not yet been revealed. It will be played using version 1.61 of Civ4 with locked modified assets.

Individual start files for all teams will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page at midnight, server local time, at the start of August 8th.

Here's the start position.

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Tokugawa of Japan
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Fractal, hand modified
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - YES!
Barbarians - Raging!!

Please visit the following link to ensure that you are adequately prepared:
Civ4 SGOTM reference thread

Notes:

A. ONLY Civilization IV v1.61 is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - victory will be awarded for the fastest victory by Conquest.

C. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

I'm sure you'll enjoy this game

 

[Methos]

Signing in.

One of the reasons I attempted to recreate our start is to learn how much distance will affect us, due to having two cities. Unfortunately it appears WB is beyond my abilities.

Since we’re going for fast Domination we’re going to want to research as fast as possible. In my opinion Sailing is going to be needed to help our capitol, as in the lighthouse. Without a lighthouse our capitol can support a population of 12 with all resources improved. With a lighthouse it can support a population of 16. To be honest, I’m wondering if we might want to wait for a while on Sailing. The improved resources will be plenty to get us to max happiness during the early stages of the game.

The settler on the mainland should IMO move NW and settle on the plains tile. We’ll still have the rice and fp in our radius, plus we’ll gain the fish.

I’m worried about the effects of distance maintenance between our two cities. Anyone know how to figure that up? We could possibly use the minimap provided to figure out how many tiles separate our two cities.

 

[Niklas]

Actually the goal is fastest Conquest, not domination , but that won't really affect our reasoning in the early stages of the game. I agree that fast early research is the key to success. In particular, we should get the CS slingshot. This is what made the two fastest teams so successful in the last game, and for this game it is even more important, considering we are who we are (Samurai).

I've tried a few starts with the same parameters, and on all starts I was able to pull off the CS slingshot quite easily. I didn't even go for it all out, I took the time to research some other useful techs as well. With our current start I would suggest something like the following research path:

• Agriculture - for farming the rice to let us grow
• Pottery - for cottages to help research
• Mysticism
• Meditation - cheaper than Polytheism
• Priesthood - Oracle
• Writing
• Code of Laws - will probably net us Confucianism too
• Civil Service - by finishing our Oracle build the same turn CoL comes in

The techs I've felt I've missed the most in my test starts are Bronze Working for chops, and in some games Animal Handling. In one test game I actually managed to put in AH before Pottery and still get the Slingshot in (IIRC) 670 BC. Judging from some discussion I've read, this is really quite late. We might all want to read up on the start of team CFR from last game to see how they pulled it off with Pottery. Also the first spoiler thread for GOTM08 was enlightening, though the parameters for that game are very different.

With the help of the "free" capitol, it shouldn't be a problem for us to pull it off, even if we get a maintenance penalty for the distance, our second town will pay for it self pretty fast I would bet. The question is how, and in particular how daring we can be in researching other techs in between.


I agree with Methos that NW seems a good location to settle, with the fish and the rice. Build order could possibly be workboat->warrior->warrior->worker->settler, though I'm not a good judge at these things yet. The raging barbarians are not a huge problem in the early game, it will be lots of animals roaming outside our borders. We won't have a problem until the archers show up, which in my tests has happened at very different times, between, say, 2000 BC and not at all before 700 BC (didn't play longer).

Btw, the Japanese people should be very thankful to those murderers that made the lost brother go abroad, imagine being stranded on that rock !

@Methos: I noted that the test game I played after trying yours was actually set to OCC, which I certainly didn't mark it as. Could this be the reason for the weird settler?

 

[Marc Aurel]

Checking in!

I start with a look back on our CIV SGOTM 01. This was, after rechecking the game and reading the other threads a great game and 5th place was a very good achievement looking at the experience our team had so far. But now we have quite some fame to defend. It won’t be too easy to repeat this, so we have to work hard. SGOTM 02 is a conquest game, so the military experienced players get an advantage. However since I also finish nearly all my game the military way (It is simply faster and a good choice when you don’t have so much time.) I don’t fear the permanent wars. And so far s as I know zyxy, he is an expert in warmongering. So I think we are well prepared to again be a strong competitor for the laurels.

Who wants to get laurels must pass Smurkz first! So let’ go.

First before we go into detail some general game topics:
When playing always war, WW is always a nuisance. There is one hope - the police state civic! If we can get the pyramids as we did in SGOTM 01, it would be of great benefit for us. We should keep this in mind while scouting the terrain and possibly finding stone. Conquest however is more complicated than domination, since one has to destroy all civs on the map. The general logic I play is:

- deciding on the unit type that should do most of the conquest e.g. the Maceman. This is in our case our unique unit, the Samurai. So we should definitely try to do it with them. The problem is we need to know additionally machinery for them and copper won’t do. Maybe we can successfully upgrade a couple of swords.
- have a build phase and research asap to the required military tech for that unit (e.g. CS) preferably by CS slingshot via the Oracle (we may have a look for marble!)
- Forget about the economy and have a great conquest race in a second phase to subdue the world.

This is roughly what also CFR had played in SGOTM01.

The problem is that after you start the conquest your economy definitely goes down. That will make it impossible to research other important military techs in the time frame set. So you run against an imaginary date, when the economically most powerful civs researches a defensive tech that produces a unit that simply makes your main conquest unit obsolete. Then you have a couple of turns left while your sheer numbers are still enough to press on. But when the offensive ever comes to a halt, one is really stuck. Other than in Civ3 the maintenance paid by then doesn’t allow you to get better attackers fast. So we win early or very late – nothing in between.

That problem sets one important rule to conquest games:

Strike first at the economically most powerful civs even if they are very far away!

Here comes the problem. The map type of the game is fractal, hand modified. Whatever that means, it at least tells us, that Gyathaar has put some thoughts on this problem while generating an interesting setup. Always fearing the worst, I would think that might say, that our potentially strongest enemy is a far away civilisation. But we have no chance to do anything concerning this. Just put strong emphasis on scouting. But that we would have done in any case.
I was a little bit wondering, what this far away island should do. First it increases distance maintenance. So a natural way to play in builder mode would be to go for the Forbidden palace early. Second it may be vulnerable to AI attacks, but then we just lose the distance maintenance problem for a while. OK we must reconquer this city then, what might cost important turns, but that we also would have to do, if this island would have been simply settled by an AI if not occupied by Kyoto. I don’t think any AI can reach this island early in the game. It just serves as a drag on our economy later on and speeds up the research in the very early phase IMHO.

Gyathaar has set a certain aggressiveness to the barbs and the other civs. So we will have problems in the build phase!!!!! We should definitely try to avoid popping up of barbarian units by total sight coverage of the land. One early war before the great conquest might unavoidable given the AI aggressiveness.
One important thing will be to speed up our slow Samurai attackers by galleys and/or galleons. A ship chaining setup will significantly improve our conquest speed. I believe we have to strike at the far way civs first if possible.

 

[Methos]

@Methos: I noted that the test game I played after trying yours was actually set to OCC, which I certainly didn't mark it as. Could this be the reason for the weird settler?

I opened a thread in the General forum asking about it, and Gythaar mentioned possibly having the OCC checked. Whoops... Sorry guys, I forgot I played an OCC game prior to this. If you like I can create another save this afternoon.

 

[Marc Aurel]

Concerning the obviously needed start discussion I want to give my 2 pence:

I think it is too early to fix a start location yet, cause in CIV it is often worth to look for the surrounding rather than save the first 1 or 2 turns. An exception would be if one is going for an early religion, but since we don’t know mysticism that is not an issue. BTW, Niklas with his mythologic BC domination in GOTM 57 recently has persuaded me that walking around may also be a very good choice in Civ 3. In that game I also moved the settler two tiles NE from the start but then settled. But reading Niklas post I really got envious not to have tried to go further - as he did with the 4!!!! moves prior to initial settlement. And then dominating the world BC!!! Very impressive! In SGOTM 01 nearly all teams settled on the same spot as we did. This position was too obviously the best one. Now I think things may change and the selection of the starting location already might cause differences in the starting phase. Back to SGOTM 02, I think I am judging as follows:

Definitely not settling on spot, cause we would loose a good tile for a cottage and we don’t have so many around.

Probably not going north or NE - the chances that additional resources are located there are too small.

Definitely scouting before moving the settler. I am not sure what is best. The possibilities worth to be tried seem to me 1E, 1SE and 1 SW. In the east the terrain seems to be hills and forest, that would not allow to uncover a large area. So I would vote for warrior 1 SW as the first move.

The settler however is the much better scout and can move 2 tiles, when heading south. My personal animosity towards the starting location 1 NW is simply the lack of hammers around. There is only one hill, as visible so far. Producing settlers and workers, we can rely on the food, but everything else is difficult to get and for fast domination one better has one mighty production powerhouse. Setting up this one early is an advantage and waiting for that until our first settler pops up feels too long for me. So I would go for a walk through the southern lands. Maybe best would be travelling along the river IMHO.

 

[Niklas]

Good analysis MA, we will definitely have to be careful not to overrun our economy. This emphasizes even more then importance of a fast CS slingshot, via CoL.

We're going to see a lot of warfare, but I'm not sure about calling it Always War. In my test games, the over-aggressive AIs were just as aggressive to one another, and it was easy to get at least one early friend. But we're going be at war a lot, that's true, so WW will be a problem. I too want the Pyramids, but I want the Oracle a lot more.

In Civ3 I would be unwilling to move unless I knew there was something to gain from it. I would have settled 2NE in GOTM57 if it wasn't for the scout seeing a better location. As a contrast, think of GOTM49 Carthage, where those who didn't settle in place got to walk for 20 turns to get out of the mountains, only to end up in the desert. But thanks for the praise.

I too want to move the warrior SW, that seems to be the move that uncovers the most area for us. But if we want to chance it one turn, we could move the settler SW-NW, and then NE-settle next turn unless the first move(s) uncover something better. Then we'd be free to move the warrior E or NE to check the lands there, which we would then of course do before moving the settler. In any case I agree with your assessment of settling on the spot or E- or NE-ish. If we move, it's bound to be along the river or SW-ish.

Actually, thinking some more on it, I don't see why we shouldn't move the settler. The starting location is not perfect, though it could make a good second spot. But most importantly, we have a palace settled already, so we're not wasting a large number of turns of research, so the price of walking for a few turns is marginal compared to what we stand to gain. It might even be that settling the second town will incur, say, a -2 gpt maintenance which means we'd actually be better off with the early research if we don't settle right away.

If we find a good spot to settle somewhere along the river, the plains NW or the forest 2N are both good candidates for another town, having both the rice and fish in range.

 

[Marc Aurel]

In principle I have nothing to add to this ATM. Very good!

To be more precisely, I didn’t mean always war, but thought of the second game phase when we intentionally strike permanently to finish. Then no hesitation makes any sense IMHO. WW is just moving up and one should not need too many reinforcements from later production once the Great War has started. Concerning CS-Slingshot importance, pyramids and so on, I simply agree. No complaints!

The start discussion will (hopefully) go on, so let’s first hear the others.
BTW, do we again play in order of checking in, what would mean this time: Methos, Niklas, MA, … ?

To the GOTM 57 praise: Honour to whom honour is due! Generally I thought the same than you about hiking around the first settler in Civ 3. And in GOTM 49 many suffered from not obeying this rule. (poor Redbad!) OTOH the early problems I got in that game, led me to win by spaceship this time and lacking competitors there I got my first award. But there are no awards for not-conquistadors here, besides the wooden spoons, so let’s forget this.

PS: The competition got a further kick, since klarius has joined! Quite a reason to really work hard, since he is always good for grabbing the laurel.

 

[Marc Aurel]

Time to mention something very important and obvious that must be respected concerning the start: We are not creative and the capital is already settled! So our to be settled start city will not expand by palace culture only. We rely on the initial 9 tiles for a good start unless we get culture by either religion or obelisks/stonehenge! The initial phase is becoming more and more game decisive - completely in contrat to SGOTM 01! We have to find some very dense good tiles for the startup. Or did I miss something like a second palace or so?

 

[Niklas]

Quite right so, well spotted. We either need to find a very good resource-dense starting location, or we'll want an obelisk really fast. Stonehenge isn't worth it IMO, and building Stonehenge early means more AIs will go for Oracle. Hmm. Oh the wait, can we have the game already??

Re klarius, I considered inviting him to our team since we're "only" 6 with zyxy still somewhat busy. But I didn't want to do that before asking the team, and I was hesitant because I consider us a good team not really in need of more help, 5½ players or not. And before I came to a conclusion, markh beat me to it. But that will just make beating the Geezers even more sweet, eh?

EDIT: @Methos: Yes, if you could give us a playable starting save reminiscent of our start that would be great!

 

[Methos]

Time to mention something very important and obvious that must be respected concerning the start: We are not creative and the capital is already settled!

Excellent spot, as I hadn't even considered that. I definitely agree with doing a little walking first.

 

[Marc Aurel]

Re klarius, I considered inviting him to our team since we're "only" 6 with zyxy still somewhat busy. But I didn't want to do that before asking the team, and I was hesitant because I consider us a good team not really in need of more help, 5½ players or not. And before I came to a conclusion, markh beat me to it. But that will just make beating the Geezers even more sweet, eh?

I thought exactly the same, when his sign in turned up. Also thinking on the time we made little progress in SGOTM 01,when an additional player would have helped. But I also wanted the team decision on that. And then I thought Smurkz is already larger than the 6. We may well reserve spot 7 and 8 for ControlFreak and CommandoBob! And yes we already belong to the strong teams. No need to further improve our strength for balancing reasons. So I think you did right. But quite a pity that the also already strong Geezers got him. Would have been interesting to see klarius working with a team of SGOTM newcomers. Would have improved the balance IMHO. But ok, we are definitely prepared to take on the challenge against the Geezers.

 

[dojoboy]

Signing in. Man, I thought this thread was coming out on the 8th - sorry. I guess that's for actually starting the game.

Again, I'm completely amazed by my team's analytical ability. I'll be the mascot. Btw, what does a Smurkz look like anyway?

In regards to always war, an upside to it is that WW will also be a problem for our rivals.

I've been reading over bradleyfeanor's post Methos sent us. I started up a Prince game as Japan on continents, looking to war early. But, I then found myself all alone on a continent and in need of adjusting my reaserch. I have a feeling we will need Sailing earlier than expected simply to map our surroundings - get some feet on the ground.

We may also want to look at oscillating wars, to weaken each rival before coming through for the final blow(s). The question is, will that take too much time.

Aside note, maybe we can get a Team Smurkz avatar worked up. Any one interested? Any ideas? Anyone know Mistfit?

 

[Niklas]

Again, I'm completely amazed by my team's analytical ability. I'll be the mascot.

Oh come on, don't be shy, we don't bite hard! If you never try your hand at analysing yourself, you'll never learn it either. So get in the water, pose a few questions, write a few answers, you'll get into it no time.

In regards to always war, an upside to it is that WW will also be a problem for our rivals.

I've been reading over bradleyfeanor's post Methos sent us. I started up a Prince game as Japan on continents, looking to war early. But, I then found myself all alone on a continent and in need of adjusting my reaserch. I have a feeling we will need Sailing earlier than expected simply to map our surroundings - get some feet on the ground.

We may also want to look at oscillating wars, to weaken each rival before coming through for the final blow(s). The question is, will that take too much time.

See, that wasn't so hard, you're doing fine!

A lesson I've learnt by Drazek, the Civ3 master of the conquest VC - it's the last town that counts. There's absolutely no reason to chase down the last remnants of a AI close to home when there are still other AI alive elsewhere. The final troops produced can do that, the ideal is to set it all up so that everyone gets on the same final turn. So oscillating wars is not at all a bad idea, although I'm thinking we probably don't want more than two waves - one to break them, a second to clean them out.

Regarding Sailing, is there any reason why we could not scout our surroundings with work boats? A lighthouse seems useful, but it will be a while until Kyoto has any need for it.

Btw, what does a Smurkz look like anyway?

Aside note, maybe we can get a Team Smurkz avatar worked up. Any one interested? Any ideas? Anyone know Mistfit?

I had the idea when we chose the name that the Smurkz were the evil cousins of those pesky bluish do-gooders (the name Smurfz was discussed but voted down (which Methos seems to have missed, judging from his Civ History page )). A smurk thus looks a lot like a smurf, but has a greenish skin and a mischievous mind, with world(s) domination as the ultimate goal. But since they are so few in numbers (now we are 8 ) they must work through others to accomplish their goal. The smiley most reminiscent of a smurk is . I have no idea if this fits well with what the rest of the team thinks though, and I wouldn't promote it as the one and only truth.

A Smurky avatar sounds like fun, I would imagine a smurf-like head with a greenish hue and a demeanor like he's making fun of all the inferiors. Don't ask me to draw one though!

 

[Niklas]

Here's the article I was looking for on the early game. I feel this is my weak spot, in civ3 I can see an area and immediately judge where good city spots are. I can't yet do that in CIV, but I'm eager to learn.

@Methos: Don't know if you saw my edit above since you posted at the same time - yes, a test game (with a working settler) would be great to have, I would be very happy if you could fix one.

 

[McLMan]

The first thing I thought when I saw the save was Palace Jump. Can't do it in the Civ III sense, you've got to build it. I've only built a palace in a game once, and remember that it wasn't very expensive. I can also recall seeing it in the building options and noticing that it didn't cost as much as I thought it would. I just finished searching reference charts, the manual, forums and can't find an actual cost. I think I remember hearing that it's variable based on map size, speed (of course), and difficulty level.

Regarding the start, I would move the Warrior E, and then move the Settler SW-NW if the warrior didn't see anything good.

I think Libraries will be our best bet for getting culture.

 

[Methos]

(the name Smurfz was discussed but voted down (which Methos seems to have missed, judging from his Civ History page )).

Whoops. Fixed.

@Methos: Don't know if you saw my edit above since you posted at the same time - yes, a test game (with a working settler) would be great to have, I would be very happy if you could fix one.

Yeah, I missed the edit. I have created two test saves (and the settlers do settle) and attached them to my signing in thread (post #2). I figured that would be easiest to locate. Let me know if I made any errors, or if you would like any more. I can create a few more with certain settings we desire if you all so choose. Just let me know.

BTW, I removed the messed up save from my history page.

 

[Ansar]

lurker's comment: Lurking with interest. Good luck, Team Smurkz!

I dont know about , but do you begin with 2 settlers in this SGOTM?

 

[Methos]

lurker's comment: Lurking with interest. Good luck, Team Smurkz!

Welcome!

I dont know about , but do you begin with 2 settlers in this SGOTM?

This SGOTM was specially designed with two settlers, which will possibly make it more difficult in the early years due to distance costs.

 

[Niklas]

@Methos: Thanks for the saves, I'll play some test games tonight.
Since you have already tried to settle, what kind of maintenance costs are we looking at for the distance?