SGOTM 02 - Team CFR

[Balbes]

OK gentlemen, we've lost some momentum but we're still in the running. Let's keep looking forward now.

We may have to downsize our military program to 6-8 swords, not 10-12, and try to take Spain out with that.

Do you think we want to build granaries or settlers right after the swordsmen are done?

 

[Cat Behemoth]

Just want to say a couple things more.

First. From previous discussion it's not obvious that we neglected 4GS plan.
Second. In any other way I didn't find any alternative plan to 4GS. Maybe it's late, but where is the other?

PS. Looks like it will be better to go to vacation instead play.

 

[Balbes]

CB:The 3 vs 4 GS decision really wasn't obvious, because it's still a few turnsets ahead. We tend to plan things in advance, which might make it a little harder to stay focused on the task at hand, which was, build 10 to 12 swordsmen after completing barracks, meanwhile take Yayoi when 3 to 4 swords are ready, get the rest into position for a 2-pronged attack on Spain, grow Kyoto while oscillating the 2nd scientist. There was very little discssion of this immediate plan because I believe everybody found it the natural thing to do. Obormot's and Dynamic's comments are excessively harsh, but I too don't quite understand why we didn't keep building troops.

 

[Cat Behemoth]

As I understand if we want 4 GS faster then we must think about it already now. So library in Edo is the way to it (according to Lexad). What about Osaka - it's the best scientific city now and Library adds 4-5 beakers per turn already now. Just think if we capture Spain 5-6 turns later we'll don't have Astronomy at that time. Spain will be captured after 30-40 turns at maximum. What shall we do than?

What about oscillating scientist - yes, my bad. May be I miss it, but I don't find any mention about it earlier. At least on 3 last pages.

PS. Just found it exactly 4 pages up. Can't say any more - it's fully my mistake.

 

[Lexad]

Workboat in Yayoi - agree, sheep in Tokyo - agree, swords in Osaka and only then lib - agree; think Edo should finish library still. Also think Kyoto should build forge, not placeholder Parthenon. We're going to use the city for pop-rushing, after all. And we hit pop 6 quite soon and will still be growing.

 

[Obormot]

Well, maybe I was a bit too harsh, sorry. It was a bit disapointing, but not a disaster after all. BTW, we are first in score, power and culture now. We just need to play more carefull to preserve the lead, perahaps we should post a summary of our discussion from time to time to make it easier to keep track.

The 3 vs 4 GS decision really wasn't obvious, because it's still a few turnsets ahead.

,

As I understand if we want 4 GS faster then we must think about it already now. So library in Edo is the way to it (according to Lexad).

CB is right, the problem is that if we really want to use 4th GSs, we need to hire 2 scientists in both Edo and Tokyo as soon as they reach size=4, not waiting for Kyoto to finish the current one. Otherwise we'll only get it by 1100AD (according to somebody's calculations), which is way too late. We had to make the decision now as CB said, but it seems the team decision was exactly the opposite, (because scientists so early would slow down our developement).

What about Osaka - it's the best scientific city now and Library adds 4-5 beakers per turn already now. Just think if we capture Spain 5-6 turns later we'll don't have Astronomy at that time. Spain will be captured after 30-40 turns at maximum. What shall we do than?

Well, first of all, capturing spainish commerce-rich cities earlier will boost our science as well. Also getting Astronomy is not our only goal, we also need to have a high producion level at that time and the sooner we capture Spain, the more developed these cities will be. Remember, in SGOTM-1 we have reached Astronomy at about the same time as team Peanut did, but they won in the end because they had higher production level. And again, concetrating entirely on military for the next 1-2 turnsets seemed to be the consensus.

Now we need to decide what to do with the unfinished library builds. Does anybody know how long the invested shields will last if switch production to swords but keep the libraries in the production queue?

Also we need to make the plan of our spanish campaign. Wich city do we want to attack first? I think we should try to take Madrid first to get an uber city and to cut them from their copper. Toledo can be used to promote more swords before attacking Madrid.

 

[Balbes]

What about oscillating scientist - yes, my bad. May be I miss it, but I don't find any mention about it earlier. At least on 3 last pages.

PS. Just found it exactly 4 pages up. Can't say any more - it's fully my mistake.

If I remember correctly, it was in his turnset report, under "suggestions for the next player". May I recommend that every time a save is submitted, everyone opens it and takes a look at it. You must assess what has been done and what needs to be done, taking special note of the suggestions left by the last player, because that's the way of development he has been specifically preparing for. Especially please do so if it's your turn to play.

Also, just before playing, please take your time to read once more through the discussion. By this time you probably already have a plan for the next turnset formed in your head. Look for any points that contradict this plan. It's fine to deviate from what the majority of the team agreed upon; if you believe there's a better way, by all means, it's your power and responsibility to do so. Just be sure you know you're doing it, and know your reason for doing it.

 

[Balbes]

CB is right, the problem is that if we really want to use 4th GSs, we need to hire 2 scientists in both Edo and Tokyo as soon as they reach size=4, not waiting for Kyoto to finish the current one. Otherwise we'll only get it by 1100AD (according to somebody's calculations), which is way too late.

The problem is they were size 2, and quite far away from reaching size 4. So the libraries are by no means a priority. Granaries are, if we're constructing buildings and not troops.

In fact we should be producing troops to take Cordoba (size 6) as soon as possible.

Also we need to make the plan of our spanish campaign. Wich city do we want to attack first? I think we should try to take Madrid first to get an uber city and to cut them from their copper. Toledo can be used to promote more swords before attacking Madrid.

Our plan called for the Yayoi group to swing through Cordoba and up the coast, while the second, newly built, group moves through Toledo on Madrid.
Will we now scale the army down to 6-8 swords only? If we do, Toledo-to-Madrid is the way to go, leaving the east for later.

 

[Lexad]

Does anybody know how long the invested shields will last if switch production to swords but keep the libraries in the production queue?

- 10 turns, then decay 1 hammer per turn. If you return to the build, it does not decay during construction, but continues as soon as you leave it again.

CB is right, the problem is that if we really want to use 4th GSs, we need to hire 2 scientists in both Edo and Tokyo as soon as they reach size=4, not waiting for Kyoto to finish the current one. Otherwise we'll only get it by 1100AD (according to somebody's calculations)

That's me and actually the message was a bit different

Let's decide how many GS do we need. I counted 4, 1 we already have. Next will be in Kyoto in ~28 turns, no doubt, and Kyoto will start on the next. So in fact we need to establish fast one GS-producing town, others will be for research only and their timing not that drastic.

The turn calculation was as follows:

GS timing (aforemention: 4 GS case, for 3 GS we might not even want to use anything but Kyoto)
- we get 2nd GS in Kyoto in 28 turns
- start 3rd GS in one of continental cities in 12-16 turns, get 75 turns later (doesn't matter when he comes if we use 4, matters when 4th comes)
- get 4th GS in Kyoto in 28+100 turns

Recently I favour 3-GS-idea due to expected ijcrease in research rate from ~30 bpt to ~100 by Astronomy time.

 

[Obormot]

OK, so obviously 4th GS comes too late in any case without CS. Even worse, 3rd GS comes pretty late too, so we'll have to reconsider our plans.

If we use Kyoto for the 3rd GS we'll get it only after 1000AD (500BC+28+75=995AD according to Lexad + several extra turns delayed by CB), which is too late based on SGOTM-1 experience (even adjusted for SGOTM-2's slower start).

If we set 800AD (80 turns from now) as a benchbark for Astronomy, we have 2 options: either switch to Caste System for a while at some point later in the game or use only 2 GSs: one discovers Optics, the other one discovers about 2/3 of Astronomy.

 

[Lexad]

If we use Kyoto for the 3rd GS

we would be limited by happiness very much (pop 4 atm). Edo is better here, that's why I want library finished and librarians hired there ASAP.

Edit: btw, Peanut seem to start a war aound 8000BC.

 

[Obormot]

What do you mean? I said that whatever we do, without CS we can only get 3rd GS after 1000AD, which is not acceptable. If we use only 2 GSs, we don't need Edo. If we use CS we don't need libraries.

 

[Lexad]

I agree on necessity of CS. However, we definitely need slavery to get Kyoto, Yayoi, Cordoba, Barca and Madrid running efficiently - pop-rushing necessary buildings, etc. It will take about 30 turns from now, no less. Only then we switch to CS. CS in Edo would allow to hire like 4 GS with farming wheat, sheep and 1 grass. This gives double points comparing with library. We need some time to grow Edo pop to 4 - currently 8 turns, can be sped up to 6. The difference is 20+ turns of 2 scientists working before castes kick in, which is 10+turns with castes on. That's the momentum bonus we gain by kicking library in right away. Not speaking about scientific bonus of having library and 4 scientists.

 

[Dynamic]

We don't have CS now and can't get it in the nearest future so we have enough time for pop-rushing but I prefer Forests if it's possible. I prefer Cordoba as first target and rush Libraries ASAP because of lack of CS. When we will trade CoL we will switch to CS. I also think we must not choose Religion for prevent negative relations.
So, we need CS, but we need Library also for start producing 3-d GS earlier.
Sorry I haven't time now for more detail discussion...
Last word: we must not limit our forces - it's better to build 2 Swords above necessary then 2 less...

P.S. don't forget set second Scientist in Kyoto....

 

[Lexad]

I prefer Cordoba as first target

- sorry, was that "attack target" or "library target", cuz for the latter it'd be somewhat late. I'd agree with attack.

 

[Obormot]

With Caste System we are definitely going to use Madrid as GS factory. We can get 3rd and even 4th GS really fast if necessary. So I still don't see any point in Edo's library.

 

[Lexad]

Madrid will overtake Edo, but on a long distance, and might still come late - hill, walls, promotions, long to go. Edo is a sure plan and will still work as a scientific city. Though if we concentrate on taking Madrid sure and fast, we can as well slow down research there and chop 1-2 swords.

The idea of grabbing it first is interesting, we can be there in 7 turns from war beginning, taking Barca on our way, cutting off the copper and easing our conquest of remaining cities. Still, this is a risk. Your turns are next, I believe you'll find out what is best.

The discussion is very intersting, generates unexpected ideas, thanx for all!

Edit: just one note for all on conquest - if we cut the road from Madrid to other cities, we will not cut off copper from them, as they have Sailing and thus coastal resource movement. We should go for the mine itself

 

[Lexad]

One small ide note on a bog discovered by our good friend DaviddesJ from Peanuts and explored more by me: when building workers/settlers, food is not spent on unrest citizens or on disease. The picture illustrates.

Possible use
1. Redistribute in the empire the production of settlers/workers towards high-food temporarily unrest (from slavery or just high pop) cities to maximise their output.
2. Overflow: as all food and hammers spent on settlers/workers convert into hammers on overflow, this can be used to pump production even in hammer-poor cities, thus increasing hammer output for non-settler works by hammers from diseased and unresting.
I think one could find more ways, these are just ones I thought of instantly.
Edit: found 1 more
3. If you're going to build worker/settler in the city and work on some marginal land (wood or smth), you can pop-rush something before it and then build worker/settler during unrest.

 

[Balbes]

It seems we need both Caste System for a quicker 3rd scientist, and a good conventional science rate to discover things like Civil Service and the remaining 1/3 of Astronomy fast. This means libraries should be built; but not before an army.

 

[Obormot]

Libraries are useless compared to buildings like granaires, lighthouses, forges and courts. Our science rate will be about 50%, so the benefit of a library will be marginal (except maybe cities like Osaka). I believe that by the time we build granaries, forges, etc. in our cities we'll be so close to Astronomy & CS, that building them won't make any sense.

I really don't like switching to CS, but if that is what everybody wants, fine. Actually if we really want to use CS for a while, we should take full advantage of it and generate all 4 GSs. I'll try to do some calculations before playing to find out for how many turns do we need Castes, how many scientists we can afford in each city, etc. before playing.

As for the Spanish war, I think it makes sense to concetrate on Madrid first.