SGOTM 02 - Team CFR

[IL2T]

Madrid?

Kyoto!?

Function of Tokyo is a production/science town. It have only 3 grassland hill.
It agree concerning library in Edo! While in Edo the first swords will be builded - war with Spain will end.
Candidates for a role of GP farms it Kyoto, Cordoba, Madrid!
It's necessary for us to choose one or two town!

 

[IL2T]

Few ideas about war with Spain:
-There come two groups of troops
-Route of the first group: Toledo - Barcelona - Madrid
-Route of the second group: Sevilla-Cordoba
-Two swords second group in the beginning carpture barbs city!
-Upgrade one warrior with Woodsman 2 to Axe - on money from capture of barbs city (movement 2 in forest and jungle!)

 

[Lexad]

Mardid is good, but too late. That was a joke, haha.
We here need the town which will start to generate GPP for GS as soon as possible, seing Obormot unwilling to jump to castes and back, wastng 2 turns. Of course, if in late game it would appear such actions will give us momentum, we still might use it.

Let's decide how many GS do we need. I counted 4, 1 we already have. Next will be in Kyoto in ~28 turns, no doubt, and Kyoto will start on the next. So in fact we need to establish fast one GS-producing town, others will be for research only and their timing not that drastic.

Cordoba will not start working soon - we need time to build army (about 11+ turns )+ ~5 turns to get to Cordoba + revolt time + pop-rushing library +waiting for borders to expand (5) to grab fish and regrow to pop 4 - great deal of turns. I'd say >~25 turns. I'd sort it out.

Tokyo already has library, it needs to grow. 9 turns while worker finishes wood and completes pasture will give us exactly pop 2. Then it takes 9 more turns to pop 3 if working sheep and horse. 18 turns from now we can employ 2 scientists and still have 1 food of growth, it will give 3rd and Kyoto - 4th, but then Tokyo will limit our opportunities on speeding up with castes by having no spare food.
We can try to speed up the process by starting working sheep next turn and moving citizen to them, finish it 6 turns from this one and get pop 3 in 9/3+3+(39-(6-3)*3)/5 = 12 turns. Then we can MM with castes to get 4th GS in either Edo or Kyoto as fast as we could but not wasting Tokyo GPP.

Edo would fit excellently - with 2 food sources it will grow fast to pop 4 and will easily support 2 scientists - but then we should synchronise the growth and the library chopping.
Scenario of building and chopping library:
- workers - both work wheat (3) then chop 2 woods (6, 9)
- Edo produces 2*6 at pop 1 + 3*5 at pop 2 = 27 hammers in 11 turns. 20 hammers short from library = either 5 turns of working wood or 4 turns of working hill at pop 3, giving library 15-16 turns from now with research staff ready. Or just 1 chop by 2 guys in (3,5; 13) turns.

Thus Edo is comparable to Tokyo in speed, but gives more strategic advantage of using castes to speed up GP generation in Both Kyoto and Edo. Cordoba is same Edo but would take 10-13 more turns to start.

We should choose, however, between chopping swords with 2 workers now and running fast library in Edo. We can chop with 1 axe at Tokyo, but this would mean slowing down sheep and growth. We should decide whether we go for hammers or growth+research in Tokyo in short run.

 

[Dynamic]

I'm still thinking we need Caste System for GL and Courthouses in our cities. In other case we will wait too long. If we will and our Spain war enough fast and trade for CoL and Calendar we will have time to build Libraries and Courts for increasing our science. In this case we will have strong cities and, may be 3 GS will be enough because of strong science.

 

[Lexad]

If we

trade for CoL and Calendar

we would need only CS and maybe Construction, we won't need science In this case castes are surely the way for speeding up GS.

 

[Dynamic]

If we we would need only CS and maybe Construction, we won't need science In this case castes are surely the way for speeding up GS.

Good economy is also useful for upgrades.

 

[Obormot]

I'm still thinking we need Caste System for GL and Courthouses in our cities. In other case we will wait too long. If we will and our Spain war enough fast and trade for CoL and Calendar we will have time to build Libraries and Courts for increasing our science. In this case we will have strong cities and, may be 3 GS will be enough because of strong science.

I agree with you that we need a strong economy, not even for upgrades, but mostly to be able to keep more cities on the other continent to pump out more units. I think we should build lighthouses, granaries, forges and courts, but I don't think we need libraries. Coastal cities will get commerce from the sea, inner cities should get some cottages built once the happiness limit will be increased (with sugar and forges).

I don't understand why do we need Caste System so much if we only need 3 GS? You seem to contradict yourself. I am strongly against using CS. Not even because of the lost two turns, but because of poprushing. To build all the needed buildings in spanish cities we'll need whipping.

 

[Balbes]

-How many cities will we use for GS-generation? 2,3,4?
-How soon (how many turns into the future) will we need the final GS?
-How many turns the Spanish war is expected to take?
-When will we have enough population to be able to assign scientists?

 

[Lexad]

I join you guys in the vote for good economy. I was just speaking about scientific side, not proposing to build libraries everywhere, but just trying to find how we can most effectively gain momentum on GPP, not worrying to much about further research and library-building. Sorry if didn't make myself clear.

Here's some calc of do we get GS before other sciences are done or after and what should we rush then.

GS timing (aforemention: 4 GS case, for 3 GS we might not even want to use anything but Kyoto)
- we get 2nd GS in Kyoto in 28 turns
- start 3rd GS in one of continental cities in 12-16 turns, get 75 turns later (doesn't matter when he comes if we use 4, matters when 4th comes)
- get 4th GS in Kyoto in 28+100 turns

Thus we get Astronomy with 4 GS in 128 turns.
Ways to improve the timing:
- get 4th GS in another continental city, which would slow down army-building, but allow to get 3rd in 12+75 = 87 turns and 4th in 15+100 = 115 turns, i.e. 13 turns earlier.
- use castes - many options, hard to estimate, but Edo and Kyoto food resources allow to double GPP output in a blink (for Edo we should be ready for this and keep pop >=7 (3 farmers and 4 scientists) and 1 grass irrigated). If we find ourselves with a big army sitting on its butts and waiting for ships, the GPP growth will become crucial, and if castes would allow us to win more than 2 turns - then why not use them! This I believe is what Dynamic was proposing (don't hit if I'm wrong).

The other important part is the rate of research - assuming our research rate is constant. It won't be as we get more cities, but we also get more commerce and librarians, so I assume they about cancel out each other. And I base it on absolutely nothing

Research timing
Machinery 28
Calendar 22
CoL 22
CS 58

Totalling 130 turns. Amazingly fits with GS timing.

However, we could need rushing GS with castes if we trade for Calendar or CoL with civs we meet with our caravels. Or if we want to start with swordrush from galeons. Or if research rates after capturing Spain will be significantly higher than now. All this factors should be taken into account when deciding on speeding up GPP.

 

[IL2T]

-How many turns the Spanish war is expected to take?

If we shall come two groups - it will demand ~15 turns.

 

[Balbes]

130 or even 115 turns is a really, really long time. Much longer than it will take us to dominate our continent. Something that can significantly shorten this time will go a long way towards securing the fastest conquest for us. Have we got any ideas? Everything is welcome, let's brainstorm.

 

[Lexad]

One is said - fast caravels, trade 1-2 mainstream tech (Calendar/CoL), cuts 22 turns. Castes for faster Astro.
Next - try swordsman rush, upgrade into samurai later. Neglect CS, use castes for speeding up GP, research Compass ourselves so we need only 3 GP which brings Astro 25 turns closer. We can research CS while on the way and upgrade to samurai in 1st seaport we seize.
Edit - or use 3 GS and the rest of Astro research ourselves. Could anyone kick a rule how many bulbs GS gives? Dynamic?

 

[IL2T]

Small note: What you think about score graph "Rat pack"?

I believe, that it's possible to reach the following AI/AIs on galleys!

 

[Lexad]

Small note: What you think about score graph "Rat pack"?

I believe, that it's possible to reach the following AI/AIs on galleys!

No, they do little before 600 AD, just likking Spain and growing pop, it seems.

 

[Balbes]

Small note: What you think about score graph "Rat pack"?

I think their game is hopelessly slow...

And they seem to have kept most (all?) conquered cities - why? This isn't a domination game.

Lots of forest around those cities would be a valid reason... perhaps.

 

[Lexad]

Lots of forest around those cities would be a valid reason... perhaps.

Or lots of people. I find it very convenient to start w/o cats, but as you start to face more tough cities and units, pop-rush them near frontline. Esp. good with all horses as siege doesn't slow them down.

 

[IL2T]

No, they do little before 600 AD, just likking Spain and growing pop, it seems.

It seems to me, that they have started at 1100AD to beat the second nation!
Are they can research Astronomy to this time?

Our research calculations show at this date for our Astronomy! Incredibly...

 

[Dynamic]

Could anyone kick a rule how many bulbs GS gives? Dynamic?

GS on Epic gives 2250 bulbs in base, + 3*Pop, don't remember, may be also mult 1.5

 

[Dynamic]

We will need Libraries in cities with stong Science, but really courts are more important. I think we will trade CoL and Calendar, but I don't know about Construction... and for CS we need Science not less then ~100.

 

[Lexad]

GS on Epic gives 2250 bulbs in base, + 3*Pop, don't remember, may be also mult 1.5

Yep, 2250 + #*4,5. Thanx!

As for 100 bulbs per turn - Osaka gives ~20, build library to make 25
Any "library - 2 scientists" city gives 6+1, if most of such cities produce at least 2 coins, MM science switching between 0% and 100% to get extra bulbs. But that's too little.
We can have 6 such cities after conquering Spain - Kyoto, Tokyo, Edo, Cordoba, Barce, Madrid? giving 8-9 bulbs on average = ~50.

That's 75 bulbs after the dust settles.
Plus Balbesgrad - another 8-9. Also we can grab a SW fish-and-iron-and wood place - another 8-9. Plus cottaging land around Seville and cultivating sugar. These should give the rest.
The castes thus aren't necessary, but might help. 1100 AD for Astronomy seems kinda late. Are you sure, IL2T?