SGOTM 02 - Team CFR

[Lexad]

So how about GM idea in Madrid for Guilds? We can use the money from merchants to finance science by commerce and finish Astro ourselves, not waiting for 4th GS.

 

[Dynamic]

I will recalculate all this points before playing. I'm not sure about today, may be tomorrow... let other teams more time to view our line to sky...

 

[IL2T]

Dynamic Tell as you will play!

 

[Dynamic]

I will play one hour later

 

[IL2T]

I will play one hour later

What's you plan?

 

[Lexad]

What's you plan?

Him tell later

 

[Dynamic]

Didn't play yet, just calculated...
4-th GL will came too late in comparing with own researching if we will resolve finance problem (may be AI trading) and will use 100% science. Madrid can start producing GL after about 14 turns (1 turn for revolution inside) with 18 per turn rate. So, 4-th GL will born in 34 turns after it. Summary is 48. 3-d GS in Edo will come on 27-th turn from now, "manual" research Astronomy will spent around 20 turns (100%) so, it could be earlier. And, we can research Civil Service before Astro in this case (after 27-th turn) and at moment, when we will get Astro some Samurais will be ready for transferring. In addition, if we will force GM in Madrid we will have additional 18 moneys per turn for help our economy. Other side of coin is less effect of Academy...
About Guilds: for using GM for it we must delay Civil Service (open Paper), it's not so good...
About cities: I think we don't need city on SE and need city on SW only befor Astronomy for increasing Galleons rushing (by Forests). I think the best place for next city is Desert on E from Osaka (2 Floods, Hill and Copper). this city may be Cottaged and have enough good base production (9). But, I'm not sure I will found it during my turnset.
Construction, I hope, we cold trade a little bit later. So, now I will start Civil Service with average speed (at least I will start it in nearest 10 turns).

P.S. Edit wrong calc for 3-d GS...

 

[Lexad]

About Guilds: for using GM for it we must delay Civil Service (open Paper), it's not so good...

True! Haven't noticed Guilds have lower gold flavour!

Also, we need more workers. I think Cordoba can help in 3 turns when it grabs fish.

 

[Dynamic]

Just played... very want to sleep, so comments later, sorry...
Revolution 2 turns, damn... so my calculations are slightly wrong...
And, I missed power of my notebook so it shut down during this session.
In short: I traded Construction and revolt to Caste and HR. My turn is noy ended, so we must choose chopping target...

 

[Lexad]

Construction - excellent!!! And Hatshepsut seems to build GLib for us
Bad news - half of AI have Alphabet and are almost par to us in techs (lack Machinery).
Now we have 17 turns before GS in Edo (15 if move 1 feeder for 6 turns to science), so after next turnset we might as well start researching Astro.
Madrid - if we hire 5 feeders (29 food) we can hit pop 12 (current happiness and, more important, health limit) in 1 (&6 food overflow) + 2 (&3) + 3 (&6) + 4 (&5) + 4(&0) = 14 turns, generating 2*14+13+11+8+4 = 64 GPP in the process. Then 4 feeders provide 24 food for the pop and 8 specialists generating 24 GPP per turn, giving 4th GP in 22 more turns (with 3 turns of a feeder working as spec) = 36 turns from now, or 21 after 3rd GS. Now we should decide on the type of the Great Person we want to get - GM or GS.
My opinion - 21 turn is too long, on accumulated money we will rush CS and Astro - we can in fact pre-rush them and in 15 turns only spend 2 turns for finishing each. So we should look further. GM allows Guilds if we research Paper unlocked by CS (and we can't wait with CS another 21 turns), or we can cash him in some unconquered civ for ~1500 to finance our conquest. GS would give Philosophy (this we can trade from AI), Paper, Edu, Printing press (in that order, but if Paper first, Philo turns last). Actually see no use for any of these, however scientists are 50% more efficient due to Academy.
Another alternative would be to abandon 4th GPerson idea from the start and just accumulate pop to switch to Slavery right after 3rd GS and start rushing military. We still can employ specialists, we just don't need to hope cash their GPP anytime soon.

Minor side note - we should send some worker finish rice irrigation near Barca, only 3 turns left.

 

[Lexad]

Some more accurate calcs on discovering CS and finishing Astro - currently at 100% science we can research for 1370/52 = 25-26 turns (don't expect this to worsen). Researching CS requires 9 more turns, finishing Astro under current pop requires (4485 - 2250 - 43*4,5)/131 = 15.6 turns, pop growth and research growth can decrease it, but not much. Thus we have 9+16 = 25 turns to go, which is 10 turns later than 3rd GS arrival date. We need to decide what we want ASAP (i.e. in 16 turns) - Astro or CS - and if it is Astro, start research no later than in couple of turns.

 

[Balbes]

Bad news - half of AI have Alphabet and are almost par to us in techs (lack Machinery).

Well, this can't be helped with all of them on the same continent and in that nice Buddhist coalition.

36 turns from now, or 21 after 3rd GS. Now we should decide on the type of the Great Person we want to get - GM or GS.My opinion - 21 turn is too long, on accumulated money we will rush CS and Astro - we can in fact pre-rush them and in 15 turns only spend 2 turns for finishing each. So we should look further. GM allows Guilds if we research Paper unlocked by CS (and we can't wait with CS another 21 turns), or we can cash him in some unconquered civ for ~1500 to finance our conquest.

I think we should start building swordsmen, and rush those AIs who still don't have Feudalism by the time we get Astronomy; then use the GM gold to upgrade them. Alternatively, build galleys now to free our coastal cities for Samurai production.

 

[IL2T]

We have strong science...
Some desicions is available now... Let's discuss!

 

[Lexad]

We should definitely pre-build Galleys for them to turn to Galleons, but I'd rather not finish the build. We'll already have low cash after 25 turns of 100% research. And we will still need more Galleons. Pre-building swords is also a good option, we did it last game.
GM over GS is more or less clear, I'm more interested in comparison of Slavery vs Castes for 10 turns after we get Astro and CS. The major effects are GM from castes (and higher cash) vs higher production from Slavery (with pop 12 Madrid alone can churn a Samurai every 2 turns for 10 turns under consideration - or some Galleons; add Cordoba, Edo, Kyoto).

 

[Balbes]

In fact I'm not talking about pre-building swords, but rather about using them for actual combat duty. The AIs are on the verge of getting longbowmen; but against archers, cheap swords en masse will ensure those civs are taken out quickly, before Feudalism.

 

[Lexad]

That I understood, I was talking of other aspects. As for starting with swords - this can be done, althoug a start will be quite short (<10 turns), but then we can upgrade them in captured cities - however our cash surplus is already low, we might not have funds for it. The decision depends on the defence our scout find in first target's cities. Many axes or some xbows mean no swords.

As we get HRule and Construction, I want to reinstate Obormot's proposal or pop-rushing catas as soon as we get back to Slavery - and a Galleon to bring these to frontline.

 

[Obormot]

Some more accurate calcs on discovering CS and finishing Astro - currently at 100% science we can research for 1370/52 = 25-26 turns (don't expect this to worsen). Researching CS requires 9 more turns, finishing Astro under current pop requires (4485 - 2250 - 43*4,5)/131 = 15.6 turns, pop growth and research growth can decrease it, but not much. Thus we have 9+16 = 25 turns to go, which is 10 turns later than 3rd GS arrival date. We need to decide what we want ASAP (i.e. in 16 turns) - Astro or CS - and if it is Astro, start research no later than in couple of turns.

Your numbers are wrong. We generate 131 beakers at 100% science, not 52, and we have enough money to maintain 100% research for ~20 turns. So we can get CS and part of Astro at about the same time 3rd GS is born. So we will have all the techs we need in ~17 turns.

Madrid - if we hire 5 feeders (29 food) we can hit pop 12 (current happiness and, more important, health limit) in 1 (&6 food overflow) + 2 (&3) + 3 (&6) + 4 (&5) + 4(&0) = 14 turns, generating 2*14+13+11+8+4 = 64 GPP in the process. Then 4 feeders provide 24 food for the pop and 8 specialists generating 24 GPP per turn, giving 4th GP in 22 more turns (with 3 turns of a feeder working as spec) = 36 turns from now, or 21 after 3rd GS. Now we should decide on the type of the Great Person we want to get - GM or GS.

So it 36-17=19 turns of slavery wasted to get 4th GS/GM. I think it is not worth it. It seems a bit of a waste not to use Madrid as a GP farm, but I think it is the way to go. What we can do though is to research/trade Literature and build NE there. Then whip library, market, temple, etc and generate GPs under slavery. If we have time for 2 GPs, we can launch a Golden Age to boost production. This may be a good idea, since Madrid has too much food even if we kill 2 citizens at a time.

So we should turn science to 100% now, research CS, then Astronomy. Once we get GS in Edo, finish Astronomy with it and switch to slavery. We should start building samurais after CS (maybe with some swords prebuilds so that we can start even earlier). And we can already start some cats now in cities that have the basic buildings. After Astronomy our coastal cities should whip a galeon each. Note that we cannot use galleys for prebulding galeons, since it is still possible to build galleys after Astronomy. We also need roads urgently so that we can move units quickly to the front.

As we get HRule and Construction, I want to reinstate Obormot's proposal or pop-rushing catas as soon as we get back to Slavery - and a Galleon to bring these to frontline.

Note that the city will become totally useless after the whipped units leave the city, because of unhappiness. I think this trick is only usefull for Kyoto, since it is almost useless without constant whipping anyway.

 

[Lexad]

Your numbers are wrong. We generate 131 beakers at 100% science, not 52, and we have enough money to maintain 100% research for ~20 turns. So we can get CS and part of Astro at about the same time 3rd GS is born. So we will have all the techs we need in ~17 turns.

I might have not written it clear enough, but you've got it wrong, currently at 100% science we can research for 1370/52 = 25-26 turns was for calculating how long can we research at 100% rate. The following Researching CS requires 9 more turns, finishing Astro under current pop requires (4485 - 2250 - 43*4,5)/131 = 15.6 turns gives the exact turn calculation under these conditions. We cannot get both techs in time with 3rd GS, in fact, we need to start Astro in couple of turns to get it ASAP and build more Galleons as we cannot prebuild them - thanx for noticing, my fault.

Note that the city will become totally useless after the whipped units leave the city, because of unhappiness. I think this trick is only usefull for Kyoto, since it is almost useless without constant whipping anyway.

Agree, was also speaking about Kyoto only.

If we want to make Madrid in GP farm and use GP for GAge, then we'd better start with scientists, as we need fast resesarch in next 20-25 turns, and accumulated funds allow us to keep that long.

 

[Dynamic]

So we should turn science to 100% now, research CS, then Astronomy.

I think you mean prebuild CS, we must not end CS before using GS.

 

[Obormot]

I might have not written it clear enough, but you've got it wrong, currently at 100% science we can research for 1370/52 = 25-26 turns was for calculating how long can we research at 100% rate. The following Researching CS requires 9 more turns, finishing Astro under current pop requires (4485 - 2250 - 43*4,5)/131 = 15.6 turns gives the exact turn calculation under these conditions. We cannot get both techs in time with 3rd GS, in fact, we need to start Astro in couple of turns to get it ASAP and build more Galleons as we cannot prebuild them - thanx for noticing, my fault.

Yes, you are right. So we are going to get Astronomy & CS 24-25 turns from now, i.e. in 710AD. We should still switch back to slavery as soon as GS in Kyoto is born.

If we want to make Madrid in GP farm and use GP for GAge, then we'd better start with scientists, as we need fast resesarch in next 20-25 turns, and accumulated funds allow us to keep that long.

I am not sure if it is worth it, NE+market+theater+temple is a big investment and I am not sure that 5th GP will arrive soon enough to make a differense. On the other hand Madrid will grow much faster then we can whip, so specialists there are a good idea... Maybe we can capture/trade marble after Astronomy.

I think you mean prebuild CS, we must not end CS before using GS.

Yes, of course.

Reminder to CB, just in case

We should switch to Astronomy once we have 1 turn left untill CS and finish it only after we use our GS. We should also not trade for Meditation and Theocracy untill then.