SGOTM 02 - Team CFR

[Balbes]

Civ4's turn numbering and logging system isn't very intuitive as half of the stuff happens "in between turns", but that isn't the problem this time. We carried out a revolution but don't seem to have been penalized for it in hammers nor in beakers. Most notably, among the catapults we're building, there were 2 due in 1 turn. I click "Revolution", press Enter ("end turn"), lo and behold, they've been built. My understanding is that you can't possibly get anything built on the very next turn after a revolution because you're supposed to have 0 production because of anarchy.

 

[Lexad]

Hmm, that's strange. So you got the "governmetnt reestablished message" and catas alive and kicking the same turn?

 

[Balbes]

The same in-between-turns to be precise. "What do you want to build in this city?" next turn.

 

[Lexad]

Strange. Have never experienced such things.

 

[Balbes]

I even checked the civics info screen - first thing i did. But we're in Slavery alright.

 

[Balbes]

A mostly quiet builder turnset.

Buildings

Barcelona completed granary, started forge.
Satsuma completed lighthouse.
Satsuma and Edo are now both building courthouses. (In Edo, complete on my last turn.)

Workers

Most workers continued improving the land around their home cities. Mines were built near Seville, Cordoba, and Satsuma, and some of the last forests chopped.
Currently as many as 4 workers are clearing jungle and building plantations near Barcelona. Other tasks underway: mine near Satsuma, farm near Tokyo, mine near Yayoi.
2 workers are building roads: Osaka to Tokyo, and Seville to Osaka.

Research

We hired a 5th scientist in Edo and then even 6th. Aryabhata (GS) was born in 575 AD and developed Astronomy for us. We are now researching Civil Service which will be ready in 1 turn.

All scientists were fired immediately following the discovery of Astronomy. At that time Mao had Feudalism but refused to trade it. So we revolted changing only one civic, Caste System -> Slavery. Somehow this turned out to be a popular choice among our citizens. To think about it, Castes brought them nothing but one long stressfull research race, with many cities suffering from starvation. And Slavery had seen our Empire to its glorious conquest of Isabella. So our encouraged weaponsmiths kept working even during the revolution!

AlanH and Gyathaar were contacted for comment.

AlanH: Lucky team CFR!
Gyathaar: No big deal, go ahead

Army and Navy

Until Astronomy, all cities not otherwise occupied kept building catapults. We now have 10+ of them which should be enough for a start. Most of the catapults are in or near Satsuma but two are aboard galleons.

Madrid and Cordoba immediately rushed 2 galleons, which are now heading towards the position of our galleon chain off Satsuma. 2 more galleons will be ready next turn. I think 4 is enough for now. After moving the bulk of our army across the channel, 3 will stay there and work the chain, and 1 will leave to service Kyoto.

Swordsmen prebuilds were started which will turn into Samurais. 6 are in queues now (Madrid, Osaka, Yayoi, Cordoba, Tokyo, Kyoto). I tried to MM them to end up in the optimal poprushing range, so on the next turn we can immediately rush ourselves a small but potent army. 5 are ready for rushing but the one in Cordoba needs some more hammers.

Foreign Affairs

We were not the only ones to get a Great Scientist. China got one as well. Mao Zedong now knows Civil Service.

Bismarck asked for Optics (nicely), but we refused. Bismarck fears that we are becoming too advanced, and won't trade techs. Mao is below him in score, so would not trade either, although at the moment he simply "does not like us enough". These two leaders are useless as trading partners.

Hatshepsut has Literature and Drama, but refuses to part with them. Mansa Musa got Literature and immediately started building the Great Library, so will not trade Literature.

Mao, Huayna Capac, and Mansa Musa know Feudalism. The latter two will trade it to us, but we have nothing to offer except Astronomy. On the next turn, we should be able to get Feudalism in exchange for our Civil Service. So Lexad should delay production of troops that are due in 1 turn.

Bismarcks completed the Colossus. Mansa Musa completed Chichen Itza.

Resources: We are importing: banana, dye, spices from Egypt; cow from Mongolia; incense from Germany. Our excess resources were sold for gpt (we had 5 fish!)

Recon

Our caravels continued charting northern parts of the ocean but found no new lands.

Our explorer moved through German, Malinese, and Inca lands. Sightings were reported as follows:

Germany
in Munich: 1 axe (unpromoted), 1 archer (CD1).
in Frankfurt: 2 archers (1 of them CD2).
in Berlin: 1 spear, 4 archers (1xCD3, 1xCD1, 2x unpromoted).
at iron mine: 1 crossbow.

Mali
in Walata: 2 axes, 3 skirmishers, 1 settler.
in Kumbi Saleh: 2 skirmishers.
in Timbktu: 2 skirmishers (2x CD1), 1 spear (C1).
in Djenne: 1 axeman (C1), 1 skirmisher (CD1), 1 spearman (C1).

Inca
in Machu Picchu: 1 horse archer (C1), 2 cats, 1 axe (1x C1, 1xCR1), 1 archer
in Cuzco: 1 sword (C1), 1 cat, 2 spears (1x C3, 1x C1CR1), 2 archers (2x CD1)
near Cuzco: 1 roaming horse archer (C1), 1 spearman at horses (C1AA1).
near Tiwanaku: settler convoy (2 archers, 1 worker, 1 settler) bound for the peninsula west of Tiwanaku.
in Tiwanaku: 2 galleys, 1 cat, 1 spear (C1S1), 1 archer (CD1).

 

[Balbes]

Some more thoughts:

-For the time being we can rush straight military units to get the war started; we were able to trade for happiness resources, and MP units are not immediately required (though we'll need them soon).

-We're going to have to square off vs the full repertoire of medieval troops: longbows, crossbows, and maces. Gentlemen, can we please get Guilds pronto?

-It occured to me that enemy crossbows may try to actively attack our samurais (they have 60%+ odds), so how about us building 1 defensive crossbow, cover promoted, for each of our stacks?

 

[IL2T]

Well done!
Some comments later...

I haven't so understood, why it was not possible to discover Astro + CS for 9 turns?

 

[Lexad]

Good. All analysis later, but -

at iron mine: 1 crossbow.

a f...ing what?!

 

[Balbes]

Good. All analysis later, but -

a f...ing what?!

Bismark's crossbowman, umpromoted, was seen guarding his iron mine.

 

[Lexad]

I haven't so understood, why it was not possible to discover Astro + CS for 9 turns?

I think cuz we were at 50% research rate. And I'm not sure why. We could've pre-built some samurai more now. However, that's history.

Other stuff - we have no tech lead. When we arrive we will face xbows (only 2 still don't have machinery), elephants (at least Mali and Germany), longbows. We need to think whether we should add some units to Samurai. I find xbow idea sound (alternatively, cover-promoted Samurai even on flat land has 8.8/(1.25)~7 vs 6 and a first strike), also agree that we should trade Feudalism for Vassalage now.

Musa can declare on Capac for Astronomy. I propose trading and in the meanwhile killing off their eastern neighbours.

Quick add-on - we can employ diversion tactics, destroying strategic resources at the very start. W/o iron and ivory it'd be much better.

More to come..

 

[Balbes]

Of course we were at 100% science all the time. I adjusted it down just now because CS is the last tech for us to research unless we go for Guilds.

 

[Lexad]

Some minor MM notes

- Yayoi - instead of 2 bare plains, sea and engineer
- At Tokyo - rather cottages than farms
- Yayoi is a better place for galleon construction for westwards invasion than Cordoba
- I'll irrigate the riceat Barca, spaniards left us just 3 turns of work


Also, Musa would declare on Bismark and give us Feudalism for Astronomy

 

[Balbes]

Some minor MM notes

- Yayoi - instead of 2 bare plains, sea and engineer

I activated those 2 plains just for this turn, to finish the catapult in 1 turn. However, as we're going to get Feudalism, we actually want to delay the catapult. (Should've used the engineer nevertheless, I agree.)

- At Tokyo - rather cottages than farms

Cottages won't have enough time to grow and are simply +1..+2c improvements. +1 food for growth and whipping is much more useful.

- Yayoi is a better place for galleon construction for westwards invasion than Cordoba

We won't need any more galleons for the time being, and the food-rich pop-rushing Cordoba has already produced 2 while Yayoi won't have been quick enough to produce even one.

Additionally, building galleons in Cordoba and samurais in Yayoi, for westwards invasion, is, in fact, better than doing it the other way around, for obvious reasons related to their respective movement speeds.

- I'll irrigate the riceat Barca, spaniards left us just 3 turns of work

After the plantations are done, I suppose. And it shows as 4 to clear plus 8 to irrigate for me?

By the way, I see no more good places for sword prebuilds Our lesser cities have their hands full with essential buildings.

 

[IL2T]

Has looked save - as the description of turns is not present, I shall leave without comments.
I have understood a little, it's necessary to begin all over again.

 

[Obormot]

Nice to see we are finally moving ahead.

- Yayoi - instead of 2 bare plains, sea and engineer

And it is even better to move all those citizens (including the one on the forest tile) to the sea and use the food for rushing. We'll get more hammers and more coins that way. Also we don't need the tundra mine, it is less efficent then slavery.

Note that even if we have enough good hills (grass or plains), we should keep our cities at about +2 food (for rushing 1 citizen every 15 turns). Keeping the city at 0 growth and not using the bug at all is inefficent. If there is not enough hills, we should keep the cities at +4 food and whip 2 citizens every 15 turns.

I had a look at the save and I think most cities can be MMed to +2 food or +4 food. Cordoba requires 3 plains cottages to stay at +4 food. Barselona is a bit more problematic: it will have +11 food and no hills, not even plains for plains cottages. We'll be able to rush samurais with 2 pop every 6 turns or so. I think we should also take advantage of the chariot trick with Barselona. I didn't do the calculations, but I think it will be more effective then not working some of the food tiles or using workhops. All other cities should be OK with standard rushing.

I don't think we need guilds, samurais with cover should be enough to protect us against crossbows. We don't need a tech lead to win, we have a great production advantage (almost 2 times on the graphs, in reality it is even greater because of the whipping) and an awesome UU. I also don't think we need to make alliances, we won't gain much if they kill each others obsolete units, but we know that wars make AI build more troops, and that will be modern troops, which may slow us down. Also don't firget that researching guilds will screw up our rushing cycles in Madrid and Kyoto.

I agree that we should trade Feudalism ASAP and revolt to vassalage.

 

[Balbes]

And it is even better to move all those citizens (including the one on the forest tile) to the sea and use the food for rushing. We'll get more hammers and more coins that way. Also we don't need the tundra mine, it is less efficent then slavery.

You're right. At +4 food the city will regrow in approximately 12.5 turns so we'll be eventually limited by happiness but not very soon

My idea for Knights is to storm cities full of crossbows Of course the AI doesn't do that.

 

[Lexad]

Irrigating time includes chopping jungle, they just remain until irrigation is complete. It's a bug - cutting jungle now would add extra 8 turns and give no cut to total irrigation time. Same with mining forrested hills, can be useful sometimes.

As for lesser cities, Barca is going to pop-rush, Seville - produce and occasionally pop-rush; however, I'd change c-house in Satsuma to something military (sword or galleon) - we have enough c-houses for FP (7 with 6 required), and upkeep there is low.

Foreign trade is impressing - more than 20% of our income just from cash trades - great job! - and if we add up foreign trade routes (adjusted for money obtained from local trade otherwise) it will sum up to ~45% of national income. We must realise that once we start wars our trade routes will diminish and be ready for this. Only most useful cities shall survive.
Btw, do not cancel deal with Mao on crabs even if he gets extra gold - he's got his own now.

Once we conquer a nation, I suggest producing and sending some defensive units to replaxce our promoted samurai in city guard. Thus we save hammers( lbow is cheaper than samurai) and get veteran units near frontline.

 

[Obormot]

You're right. At +4 food the city will regrow in approximately 12.5 turns so we'll be eventually limited by happiness but not very soon

+2 food and +4 food are approximate values (exact for a size 10 city), we can of course MM the city to grow back in 15 turns exactly, but I don't think it is necessary. Growing slowly to work more sea tiles for extra commerce at the cost of a the very few hammers we'll get from plains tiles is fine.

As for lesser cities, Barca is going to pop-rush, Seville - produce and occasionally pop-rush; however, I'd change c-house in Satsuma to something military (sword or galleon) - we have enough c-houses for FP (7 with 6 required), and upkeep there is low.

Normally whipping converts food to hammers at about the same rate as mines do, so it doesn't really matter how many citizens we kill in one go, but the extra hammer portion we get for free shifts the balance in favour of whipping at least one citizen, so all cities should poprush occasionally. Barselona however has too much food for stable poprushing. So we'll have to use the same trick as with Madrid, but of course with fewer chariots. (We have already figured out that extra hammers needed for chariots cost less then not working all the food tiles). Agree with you about Satsuma.

Only most useful cities shall survive.

I disagree with this completely. I think it is just the other way around: all, but the most useless cities should be kept, at least in the beginning of the war. Later if we'll feal that our economy cannot handle mroe cities we can start razing, but for now we should keep most of them. We have cheap courts and we can whip them quickly. We have cheap barracks, so we'll soon be building 6xp units in those cities. We don't have a state religion, so we'll get a free culture expansion. We have enough courts to build the FP. Those cities will speed us up greatly!

 

[Lexad]

On hobbitses - which city would produce chariots for Madrid - Tokyo? See no strong alternatives, as Osaka should grow
MM: Once we discover CS I'll spread irrigation to rice near Osaka to get extra food.
An xbow in the city is much weaker than xbow on plain as we have city raiders and catas to remove defense. Need no knights.
A 7-pop city (which we have as our average producing city) needs (51-24)+(54-25) = 56 food to grow 2 pop. Thus we need 3-4 food surplus to rush 2 pop every 15 turns and 2 food surplus to rush every 13-14 turns 1 pop. This can be done easily with sea and farms. The easiest (least MM-requiring) way to pop-rush 2 is have +3 food at pop 7 and then 8th works extra farm.