SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[LowtherCastle]

We'll need many buddh misses and we won't be in OR too much. My recommendation above prebuilds the monastery to 40h, so the 2pop also speeds up Moai. Moai should also be complete by the end of the turnset, I think. But you're right, the first missionary would come later.

 

[babybluepants]

Didn't look at LC's plan yet. Wanted to do it independently, so we can compare...

EDUCATION

Total cost = 4212b
Bulb = app. 2420b
Remainder = 1792b > Actual 1493b (with 20% bonus)
Looks to be just about doable in 10t. No margin for error (another AI cash demand kills it, I think).

UNIVERSITIES

RICE
Easy - just make sure to get another 50h in 11t

BOMBAY
Start working corn right away > grow to 5 in 10t > 3pop whip Uni
This stagnates Delhi, unfortunately. Can't see another way to meet 11t schedule, though.

TWO FISH
GS in 11t (work 6 specs > grow in 7t - work 7 specs)
44h in 11t
Option 1: 3pop whip Market for 85h overflow into Uni > 3pop whip Uni
Option 2: 1pop whip WB (crab) for 99h overflow into Uni > 2pop whip Uni
Option 3: 2pop whip Aqueduct for 99h overflow into Uni > 2pop whip Uni
OASIS
Easy - doable in 10t, with immediate switch to library

MARBLE
Doable in 11t
No Confu - only 90h per uni whip
Needs MP unit for full growth most likely
53h and size 7 in 11t > 2pop whip library for 32h overflow > 3pop whip Uni

T+11 GS pop - complete Education - switch to Slavery/OR - whip initial build
T+12 Invest hammers in Uni
T+13 Whip Uni
T+14 Uni complete - start OU (35 BC)

I think Oxford can be done in 3t after that (10 AD), if we chop all 3 forests to Delhi's east (165h chop 2E, 2x112h chops further east, 124h overflow, 3x45ht). That's a total of 15 worker turns to be completed by T+17, so doable with one of the workers currently cottaging.

There's some micro involved in all of this - I'll re-check and try to summarize.

I'm unexpectedly too busy to continue with this tonight... Will post about other issues tmr morning.

 

[babybluepants]

FYI:

Total land area = 939
East Continent = 281
Ivory = 5
Our Continent = 187
Island south of Zara = 1
Sugar = 6
West Continent = 387
Missing tiles = 72

 

[shyuhe]

72 missing tiles, eh? Sounds like a nice big barb continent out there...

 

[babybluepants]

72 missing tiles, eh? Sounds like a nice big barb continent out there...

Are you actually a Canuck?

I'm surprised there's so much missing...

 

[shyuhe]

Nah, I'm from south of the border

Thoughts on the save:

It looks like Delhi ran a scientist for a few turns. I would NOT run any more scientists in Delhi until it pops its GP as we want to maintain high GE odds for now. I think it's fine to swap the corn off to Bombay for a bit - Delhi has more than enough good tiles to work right now (namely riverside cottages). I'd wait until next turn so that Delhi will get that new cottage, then swap the corn out.

Mehmed's lands are pretty flat so he may tech decently this game. Not sure how badly he'll spam units given his lack of hills though.

I would have preferred Pataliputra to have gone on the fish gold hill, as it won't get culturally pressed for two more border pops (a long long time) and gets a much better food tile. Heck, it may be even worth settling it later if it's still around for the pop and to sell gold to the other AI for cash. I would send the axe in Pataliputra to go scout out the rest of Toku's lands.

Don't forget to cancel the gold for silver+fish deal with Justinian once we get our own gold.

It's unfortunate we didn't make a grab for that dye spot - it would have had both dyes and silk I wouldn't worry about settler spamming for now - we need to concentrate on the Oxford.

We should send the spare WB down to the whales in anticipation of optics (probably our next goal after education?). It'll be an easy happy resource. That's it from me for now.

 

[Mutineer]

Remember we can chain irrigate. 2 workers form capital will be freed soon, (Capital will stagnate for a time, but still work all cottagess), we can chain irrigate some grassland ties for Bombei. It will speed up it's grow.

Capital will never push GE on pure terms, even with help of engineer, running some scientists at the end will have little effect on GE % (Effect maximum on start, I forgot formulae).
So, I would not wary about slight pollution, I had to run scientists to prevent it grow into unhappiness. Bomber was not able to usefully used corn at that time.

 

[Mutineer]

Well we need to farm floodplain first.

One more important point. We should not send axe away. AI can declare opportunists wars, when they see weakly defended border city. So, I would keep Axi in place. I am a bit wary about Ivory, we need to build better defender there. Izza made her demand the turn her Galley rich our borders. I would not be surprised that if we rejected she declare drop axe next to it or even did amphibious assault.

 

[babybluepants]

Capital will never push GE on pure terms, even with help of engineer, running some scientists at the end will have little effect on GE % (Effect maximum on start, I forgot formulae).

Wouldn't run any scientists either.
I threw around some numbers a while back. It seemed to me as if 100% was quite possible by mid-game, assuming we do run Pacifism continuously. Hard to actually calculate with any accuracy, but I think it's close enough so we can just slow down Two Fish a bit at some point.

We should not send axe away.

Agree.

The western scout WB should go into Angora to wait until it's safe to scout south again.

Ok, will do.

Don't forget to cancel the gold for silver+fish deal with Justinian once we get our own gold.

Sure.

I would have no objections, but that will make mach early education date then in tests, (If I remember correctly your test edu date was about 100AD, in 11 turns we still be in BC.

The test saves were 110 BC, 1t away from Education. We're 1t behind that pace, but that's no big deal as the cities are a 2-3t behind anyway.

Save chops for GL or what have you.

No.

Bombay is the problem

Yes. I mentioned this before Mut's TS, too. I don't see it catching up with the other cities without major corn borrowage... Maybe you can come up with something?

The warrior between Gold CIty and 2fish can go to Marble to garrison. The Taoist Miss can replace the warrior fogbusting S of the deer, so that warrior can go garrison where needed.

Good points. Will do.

That's it for now... There's way too many posts here.

 

[Mutineer]

I am sorry that my ideas come not organize, but again 3 more thin.

1) Use GS Bulb for education before starting whipping, as Bulb beakers if function of total population.

2) 2 Fish better whip forge first, overflow into uni then whip uni, then continue to build market.

It will make whip more efficient and let as run engineer there for additional GE chance.

3) Out next plant GP is GS for instant education bulb, but after that we should consider next producing GM in 2 fishes.
Other continent TOA city will give more gold from mission then GS give as direct bulb.
We really can use deficit research pushing all capital commerce try library/academy, Oxward.

Instead of loosing half. If would be mach more efficient then direct bulb.

 

[Silu]

One more important point. We should not send axe away. AI can declare opportunists wars, when they see weakly defended border city.

No, they can't, not because of that.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Comments:
1. Mutineer left a crab wb ready for next turn.
2. The warrior between 2fish and Gold City canNOT leave yet. Sry, my bad. There's still one tile he's fogbusting after Gold City border expansion...
3. The axe can fogbust from the gold hill. In 8t, Damascus' borders will expand again and then fogbusting those tiles won't be needed anymore.
4. Mecca will expand to the gold hill in about 100 turns.
5. Bombay needs pop6 to 3pop anything. One way to speed up the Bombay uni is with a chop. (we need chops everywhere... )
6. One turn before Educ, set research to minimum % for minimum beaker overflow. After Educ till Oxford is done, set research to 0%.
7. Another reason to 2pop the buddhist monastery in Ivory: Good chance the Buddh Miss will fail, since our cities all have religion. Then we're screwed because we're out of OR/Slavery again.
8. In general, I see us as more in a hurry to get Oxford started than done. That is, all unis fast. Since we can't run 100% research forever, it doesn't matter exactly how fast Oxford gets done, if we're at 0% research till then. The one reason to hurry is to switch out of OR asap.
9. Agree with Mutineer on Two Fish: Build forge now. 3pop with overflow into Uni. 2pop or 3pop uni. The forge won't pay off for a long time, but it could give us the uni with a 2pop, if we want, and speed up NE about 5t by my calcs, thus allowing us to avoid OR/slavery for that.
10. I understand Mutineer's reasoning for the GM, but I don't know for sure that it's what we want to do, considering our need for tons of GPs.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Am I up now? I guess this set is about getting Oxford asap...

Oxward.

That's it, bbp!!! Your slogan for your turnset!!!

.

Spoiler :

Oxward!!!​

(Please: Not making fun of your English, Mutineer. I just couldn't resist the combination of Onward Oxford!

 

[shyuhe]

I'm ok with one GM, as it will really help our mid-term research. I'm not so sold on 2 though given our heavy bulbing plan.

I like the forge in 2fish plan, as it gives us another outlet to try popping a GE (at low odds admittedly).

 

[babybluepants]

1. Mutineer left a crab wb ready for next turn.

Yeah, I got that.

5. Bombay needs pop6 to 3pop anything. One way to speed up the Bombay uni is with a chop. (we need chops everywhere... )

I'll have a look at that. We don't need a chop or any improvements in Oasis by my calculation, so maybe that worker can chop after mining.

7. Another reason to 2pop the buddhist monastery in Ivory: Good chance the Buddh Miss will fail, since our cities all have religion. Then we're screwed because we're out of OR/Slavery again.

I like your plan for Ivory. It would also be nice to get a forge during this Slavery spell, but that's not gonna happen very efficiently, so galley and monastery it is.

The one reason to hurry is to switch out of OR asap.

Yes, I wanted maximum hammers from the chops and an almost immediate switch back to Caste/Pac. Don't think we can build TGL - it would only pollute the Eng pool. Also, Delhi can use other infrastructure in the short term, so the sooner the better.

Agree with Mutineer on Two Fish: Build forge now. 3pop with overflow into Uni. 2pop or 3pop uni. The forge won't pay off for a long time, but it could give us the uni with a 2pop, if we want, and speed up NE about 5t by my calcs, thus allowing us to avoid OR/slavery for that.

I noticed Mutineer's suggestion. By my calculation, we'd need to whip 6 total for this, and would end up with massive overflow. What are we teching after Education? The only thing I heard mentioned was Optics, but we could also go Aest-Lit and save the overflow while teching that. 3 chops will basically complete NE then. Bit of a stretch maybe...

I understand Mutineer's reasoning for the GM, but I don't know for sure that it's what we want to do, considering our need for tons of GPs.

I'm for GS.

 

[LowtherCastle]

3) Out next plant GP is GS for instant education bulb, but after that we should consider next producing GM in 2 fishes.
Other continent TOA city will give more gold from mission then GS give as direct bulb.
We really can use deficit research pushing all capital commerce try library/academy, Oxward.

Instead of loosing half. If would be mach more efficient then direct bulb.

Very interesting idea. Let's discuss it a bit. Basically, what you're proposing is a way to speed up and increase a bit our manual research for a period of time, starting about 25-30t from now (wild guess). I see some possible benefits and some possible dangers with speeding up our research.

The main benefit is getting some techs sooner and getting some plus beakers on our manual teching.

The dangers are:
1. Teching too fast. (Not getting our GSes for SciMeth-Physics-Elect done in time.) Not sure if this is actually a problem or not, but since the next GP is more expensive, it seems like it might be a problem.
2. Not building enough GPs, that is, putting too much emphasis on our manual teching at the expense of our bulb-teching.


So my questions are:
1. Are there enough techs we need fast to make the GM advantageous? I could easily see the answer being Yes. Especially if we want to get NE asap, get the Music GA, and tech to Optics asap (though I'm 99.44% certain we can reach the furs by galley, cuz it wouldn't be fair to a Cultural VC otherwise).
2. What balance between manual teching and bulb teching do we need to achive?

 

[babybluepants]

Don't know what to do with the worker in Ivory. I guess I might as well road the desert tile, before putting it to sleep. It'll hitch a ride on the shiny new galley in some 12t.

I'd send the one from Rice to farm Bombay's FP; one from Delhi does: pre-chop 2E - pre-chop SEE - chop 3E (turn we start OU build) - chop SEE - chop 2E; the other from Delhi could either cottage the last grass, or get started chain-irrigating Bombay (I like the second option better); Oasis - could chop in Bombay like I mentioned above (I'll see what that does to the Uni timeline), or continue improving around Oasis. I'll ship the one from Pataliputra back once it's done roading gold. Viagra: mine another hill, then chop sugars.

 

[shyuhe]

If we take a GM and end up "researching too fast," we can stop off with the music GA and possibly the economics GM. So from a great person perspective, it should be a positive net flow. Also, are we planning on getting any great people from cities other than Delhi or 2fish? I think marble can contribute one or two, and maybe sugar can contribute 1.

 

[shyuhe]

The worker plan looks good. I like sending Delhi #2 to chain irrigate and Oasis to chop for Bombay. It looks like Bombay is our bottleneck for universities right now. Oasis worker can then go chop trees for Delhi's Oxford I think.

Also, please don't put the ivory worker to sleep - just pass its turn on each turn. We don't want to forget about him by accident.

 

[babybluepants]

Also, please don't put the ivory worker to sleep - just pass its turn on each turn. We don't want to forget about him by accident.

No worries, I never do.

I like the forge in 2fish plan, as it gives us another outlet to try popping a GE (at low odds admittedly).

Yeah, we should run an Eng there until the Delhi pop, IMHO. Delhi will be at 90-95%, I think.