SGOTM 12 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

My concern with improving both seafood first, and the resulting rapid growth, is that we will rapidly run out of usable tiles to work. But I haven't really tested warrior > WB > WB, so you might be right.

And Sid created the world and saw that it was good. He then created man and saw that it was good too. But then he produced his greatest creation *angelic choir going Oooh-aaaww-awww-aw* THE WHIP, and saw that it was really productive.

Frankly big growth early on is probably our best strategy with all them radiations, I just think that getting a worker out before the second workboat will be stronger.
 
And on the eight day, Sid created the Giant Death Robot.

Yeah, the whip will be useful here methinks.
 
@ Trystero

Great test save
 
@ Trystero

Great test save

Seconded, it saved me a lot of work and is very good at trying out some strategies. And as you are all my team mates I'll give ye the link to the best thread I've seen in a few months here. Completely off topic I know but.
 
Some things back in the thread: I don't think I could easily keep up with real-time chat in general - to do that there would have to be other teammates logged on at the same time too. But I wouldn't discourage it for those that can, and would otherwise play detailed and cautious turnsets.

I strongly support an alternate naming scheme, dwarven is great as well, going wild with units etc.. even as we want (I fight it easy if I'm doing alternate naming to have cities named, and then units produced by those cities fall in easily, maybe we can't get that many different dwarven-themed cities though).

I have not done any test games but might by tomorrow, been just a typical long day but then I wasted time on CFC on some guy's stupid stuff that was really annoying I guess.

I don't know where to stand on wonders - GLighthouse is good but not Financial-level good; strong GPP probably is needed for tech in the longrun. Testing will help too I think, and in the actual game really getting a feel for what means the differences in actual gameplay here.

I might do some testing now though, with Trystero's at first I think since it sounds like others did.
 
This has been very interesting to read, and I'll be ready to try some testing myself soon, honest! I just finished my turn set for the IC game I'm doing, so I'll have some time this weekend to mess around with this.
 
I hope nobody minds a double post - as a consolation to that though I think I will be editing this one. (edit #1: nvm, LOLZ)

I am doing the test save. Gave myself Ecology at the start because it seems vital to divergence of strategies that could occur.

I went to the northeastern spot first and warrior => workboat seems the answer there. However, I was horrified at the unhealthiness being so devastating.

When I thought about it and tried something else, to my great surprise there was a different possibility I hadn't thought of: settling in place yields no unhealthiness at the start, assuming Trystero's matches starting position exactly which looks like it. We get 2 more from forests and 2 more from freshwater, so we're in equilibrium at size one.

Obviously that's not quite an ideal city though, but the early growth could be vital and I'll test it out long term. Building a worker first is the clear call if we settle in place, it can clear fallout and improvement cows afterwards to avoid unhealthiness again, and we do have a worker out earlier, though not sure how that works against the fish. I was able to build a second settler turn 39, (and it could reasonably go out and settle say turn 43-44, we don't know what's in the fog in actuality though, but at least no barbs) no chopping, cap size 3 and size 4 by turn 50. This could be optimized but again our other areas could too.

I'm thinking I'm going to play a few variants out to turn 75, unfortunately we didn't put fallout around much elsewhere so the value of a second city could be too high in this simulation obviously. But I'm especially looking to test that settle in place opening now, because not losing 1 food to unhealthiness for like the first 30 turns just changes things a lot more than I'd have thought.

First Attachment: The core opening of settling in place. Note, especially so we can be double triple sure it matches the real game, it appears to have no health penalties settling in place at the start, and I did the first enter-turning as we build a worker and researched Ag, if you want to deviate from that try from the start I guess.

I don't know if this is better than the NNE and workboat, (which appeared to me to give unhealthiness to start, we should also verify that, because that would be a major difference, I wasn't so happy with unhealthy and only 1 :hammers: tiles to work) but I'm working on testing it, that maybe should be it for this post actually.
 

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I only had health issues when I chopped the forest.

Are you getting health problems from turn 0?

Hooking up the Fish & Clams will go a long way to helping health problems
 
Are you getting health problems from turn 0?

Yes, when I settled towards the fish + clams in trystero's second save I think (top of page 4/post 40ish). I'll see if I did something wrong there, but settling coastal resulted in just 1 :food: 1 :hammers: (1 food lost to unhealthy). Hooking up the fish just staved off the unhealthy till size 2.

edit: yes, that's what I'm getting on this save. Maybe it was a mistake/something not matching our actual opening or are you all using different test saves that don't quite match.

The plains by the coast, between cows and seafood, had 3 forests and 6 fallout in range. Total health = 2 for difficulty, 1 forest. Total unhealth = 1 for pop, 3 for fallout, so until resources are hooked up or fallout clear, very little health.

If this isn't the case, that opening is probably still better again so what I'm doing might be moot.
 
Maybe I wasn't paying attention when I played. I will check again
 
All right, I used the save in this post and played out 55 turns apiece.

The early turns are mostly the same for different variations, later there could be many branching pathways with some depending on what happens in game. With no barbs, we don't need barb defense but may still need additional warriors if AI are close. In many tests, as I can get a settler in the turn 40-somethings, that's a major question mark, because what a second city does can't be simulated out too much further.

There are three saves here; one is an edited game with a fallout tile removed.

In the Settle-In-Place save, I have two warriors and a settlre built turn 40, worker turn 15 and another worker partway done at turn 50 (also part of a granary). Cow and Rice are improved.

The reason for doing the above is that it got no unhealthiness turn 1, I worked the spices tile (extra commerce but in the end doesn't compare to coast) and the plains hill was useful for extra hammers when building a settler, as we are Imperialistic. I cannot think or/didn't find another spot that would initially yield 0 unhealth off of the river, and in place is better than off to the left, for instance, for claiming resources, though it doesn't leave us with coastal options.

In the Coastal Unhealthiness, I have both workboats down and a worker out, one cow improved, a settler in progress. Again, the issue here is the -1 Health at the start, meaning we only get 1 :food: 1 :hammers: at the start of the game. Looking at other people's reports it seems this is the case for you all, since for instance you get the first workboat at the same time (23-24) when otherwise it would be earlier if we didn't have an unhealth.

The Coastal Healthiness save is clearly the best though, but this one I worldbuilded to remove another fallout, so the city didn't have unhealthiness at the start. I think it's vital we double check this again and in the real game to be sure. It has size 5, settler at turn 47, two warriors, both workboats, two cows, and two workers (one built right at turn 55, the other from much earlier, turn 29)

Funny note: In one game out of several of these test runs, some AI built the Great Wall, forgot to check exactly who. Edit: read in rules we are in contact with all AI, and at war. Interesting strategy of seeing where things would go if early Alpha => Peace was possible with a few - in these test games many Ai were "willing to trade for peace" quite early and if we just had a way to do that. No other wonders built by that point in most games (GW interesting because no barbs, of course)
 

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Yeah, your right, settling the coast does give us health problems from the start, where SIP does not.
SIP also gives us the river, which is very beneficial for a space race.

But.... I think those things are the only benefits from SIP. It wastes so much space. There is no other obvious spot to settle city 2. We might wait a long time before we ever get the Clams, which might really hurt us with so much unhealthiness around.

I think we have no choice but to settle on the coast, just for the 2 health resources that will be used by every city. If city 1 has health issues at pop 1, so will every other city we settle.


What I might try is on the coast, next to the fish/gold. Then city 2 can get Clams/Rice/Cows and be an OK GP farm.
 
@ Trystero

Great test save

Thanks very much. Just trying to make myself useful. Sorry again about leaving out Ecology in that second test save, though.

Nice analysis Earthling. Although moving to the coast loses the +2 health bonus from fresh water, the coastal start will also have fewer total fallout tiles in it's BFC since there is no fallout on the ocean tiles. If you SIP, you get +6 unhealth from fallout, if you settle at the coast you only get +3 unhealth from fallout. Settling at the coast gives us far fewer tiles to scrub in the capital. This is in addition to the health from the seafood resources neilmeister pointed out, and that SIP will make it impossible to get another city on the peninsula unless we settle that most southern tile

One thing I noticed in looking at Earthling's saves is that all of the AI had settled a 2nd city by turn 55. In the real game, this might not be the case, since I didn't surround the AI with a lot of fallout in the test save. It would be interesting to see what the AI would do if the entire map were covered with fallout like our start is, but I'm not that fond of World Builder. I'm also not sure what sort of rules were used for the start sites for the AI. In my test games I always left at least one food tile uncontaminated in each AI's BFC.

What I might try is on the coast, next to the fish/gold. Then city 2 can get Clams/Rice/Cows and be an OK GP farm.

Do you mean the tile 1W of the gold hill? We can't settle there because of fallout.
 
Do you mean the tile 1W of the gold hill? We can't settle there because of fallout.

Good point !

Man, I need to start thinking before I type......
 
It's OK, I was playing through a test save and couldn't figure out why I couldn't offer any AI's techs for peace until I realized I didn't have Alphabet yet.

I haven't tried the junk city trick yet, but that might be something to consider if war is a problem.
 
I see the saves are now available. The way I understand this, we continue to use test games made with WB to try things out and only one person downloads the save to play the first turn set. Is this correct?
 
Yes thats right.

Anyone can download the save, at any time, but you cannot do anything 'non-reversible', unless you are the current player.

Have a look at the maintenance thread. AlanH spells out some basic rules
 
Yes thats right.

Anyone can download the save, at any time, but you cannot do anything 'non-reversible', unless you are the current player.

Have a look at the maintenance thread. AlanH spells out some basic rules

I've read it, as well as the reference thread, but that was one thing that could have been done multiple ways based on the wording so I thought I should ask. I'm going to be asking a lot of basic questions like that, until I get a handle on what this SG thing is all about. :)
 
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