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SGOTM 13 - Phoenix Rising
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
stuge
Emperor
I have nothing against lymond doing a longer set as per BB's plan either.
@awilder: On the SGOTM's progress and results-page.
@awilder: On the SGOTM's progress and results-page.
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 25,384
Turnset Complete:
Nothing much to report, except that the turnset appeared to go exactly as BB had it planned out and Hinduism was founded about 3 turns in.
Here's some screenies:
Our huge empire:
Demo
Turnset Log (this is massive
):
Nothing much to report, except that the turnset appeared to go exactly as BB had it planned out and Hinduism was founded about 3 turns in.
Here's some screenies:
Our huge empire:
Spoiler :
Demo
Spoiler :
Turnset Log (this is massive
):Spoiler :
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 25,384
Good job lymond. We seem to of followed plan to tee so far!
We are on same score as unusual suspects and Maple Sporks could we all have planned the exact same start??? Spooky if so! I would guess same size and same tech route. Hardly rocket science so far if they all learned same lessons as us. Our 2500 score will be 6 less than PD! Could they have settled the PH or worked the land tiles differently? My gut feeling was they grew to size 6 and double whipped.
Overall Lymond appears to have stuck to the plan well. Next turnset is a bit trickier. We should slow things down as the second city is about to be built. We also have a border pop in 18 turns. I would pause around time of next settler being built and being moved to island.
Key things to discuss past 2875bc:
1. Location of second city! Still on marble?
2. How the galley should explore. Circle round by crabs or straight to the stone area. How many turns does it have before the worker?
3. Have we found any copper and how will this affect our plan? Copper or stone first for second city? If in BFC it is of no matter.
Next turnset length? Perhaps to point where settler has been whipped. Rota has Vicawoo up next. Let's allow him 24 hours to post otherwise Kadazzle or Bobby can do the round. He has been on the forum but not posted here in 2-3 days.
Remember all you should only view the live save in pause mode and always save it in pause mode like Lymond has done.
We are on same score as unusual suspects and Maple Sporks could we all have planned the exact same start??? Spooky if so! I would guess same size and same tech route. Hardly rocket science so far if they all learned same lessons as us. Our 2500 score will be 6 less than PD! Could they have settled the PH or worked the land tiles differently? My gut feeling was they grew to size 6 and double whipped.
Overall Lymond appears to have stuck to the plan well. Next turnset is a bit trickier. We should slow things down as the second city is about to be built. We also have a border pop in 18 turns. I would pause around time of next settler being built and being moved to island.
Key things to discuss past 2875bc:
1. Location of second city! Still on marble?
2. How the galley should explore. Circle round by crabs or straight to the stone area. How many turns does it have before the worker?
3. Have we found any copper and how will this affect our plan? Copper or stone first for second city? If in BFC it is of no matter.
Next turnset length? Perhaps to point where settler has been whipped. Rota has Vicawoo up next. Let's allow him 24 hours to post otherwise Kadazzle or Bobby can do the round. He has been on the forum but not posted here in 2-3 days.
Remember all you should only view the live save in pause mode and always save it in pause mode like Lymond has done.
Kadazzle
Emperor
Yeah, nice round. I don't think we should deviate from the plan at all. Galley can explore while Worker is farming/pre-chopping/mining? We only need to really check out 2 immediate spots.
Donovan Zoi
The Return
Great work everyone! 
RL is going to be relentless for me over the next week or two (new job/putting house on market), but I'll contribute when I can. In the meantime, has anyone considered the benefits of Stonehenge? It gives each new city a solid foundation via extra happiness (our Charismatic monuments) and culture, though I am not certain it fits with our gameplan. Either way, it's a pretty minmal investment once we connect stone, though it may not be available by then.
I'm sure that it would have been discussed by now if we were interested, but I wanted to contribute something of possible interest after my short absence.
RL is going to be relentless for me over the next week or two (new job/putting house on market), but I'll contribute when I can. In the meantime, has anyone considered the benefits of Stonehenge? It gives each new city a solid foundation via extra happiness (our Charismatic monuments) and culture, though I am not certain it fits with our gameplan. Either way, it's a pretty minmal investment once we connect stone, though it may not be available by then.
I'm sure that it would have been discussed by now if we were interested, but I wanted to contribute something of possible interest after my short absence.
bobbyboy29
I was saying boo-urns...
Yeah, I considered it too. May need to settle on the stone to build it however. In the test games it was going at around the same time as oracle but it's worth a thought. I'll change the turnset plan so we get 1 hammer into stonehenge early to see if we can distract the AI's from building it.
I've got a couple of possible micro changes to make to the plan, I think I can get at least 5 extra hammers out which may get the 3rd city settled 1 turn earlier. Too hung over to do it now, I'll try and do it later today. Also, I'm worried that I'm getting a rep for being the micro guy, this isn't good...
vranasm
Deity
Well getting stonehenge with charismatic leader is always interesting.
But it should not distract us from main target.
Stonehenge typically goes before Oracle, I saw it up to 2200BC from what I remember, so we would have to abandon a bit our plan.
Don't forget there is at least 1 AI (more like 2 - it's what the hindu date suggests) with myst as starting tech. I would call it as lost cause.
Btw we should watch for Juda now, since someone somewhere mentioned that Juda is good indicator of early Oracle from AI's.
edit:
@gumbolt
Will size 6 capital make things different compared to bobby's plan? we could get there 3 2-pop whips consecutive...
edit2:
I think we should probably stop a bit with rushing turnsets and get some time to looking deeper on the plan with some calculations/tests with size 6 capital.
But it should not distract us from main target.
Stonehenge typically goes before Oracle, I saw it up to 2200BC from what I remember, so we would have to abandon a bit our plan.
Don't forget there is at least 1 AI (more like 2 - it's what the hindu date suggests) with myst as starting tech. I would call it as lost cause.
Btw we should watch for Juda now, since someone somewhere mentioned that Juda is good indicator of early Oracle from AI's.
edit:
@gumbolt
Will size 6 capital make things different compared to bobby's plan? we could get there 3 2-pop whips consecutive...
edit2:
I think we should probably stop a bit with rushing turnsets and get some time to looking deeper on the plan with some calculations/tests with size 6 capital.
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 25,384
I think Henge is going to be too much of a distraction in this game. Mons are easy enough to get up. Each of our early cities appear to have a plan already. Henge might get us some fail gold, but otherwise I think we have mucah better things to build.
BB - You've done a great job in figuring out the early game. We can mix up the micro guy stuff as we move along. It helps that everyone is trying things out and looking at good strategies.
BB - You've done a great job in figuring out the early game. We can mix up the micro guy stuff as we move along. It helps that everyone is trying things out and looking at good strategies.
bobbyboy29
I was saying boo-urns...
Yep, next turnset should be played up until T57, the turn before the settler is whipped, it's on this turn that the galley moves 1 square away from cap and then doubles back so we'll have the most info possible on where to settle.
The only discussion point for this turnset (if we stick with the plan) is whether the galley should scout to the east or west of marble spot to check for seafood. I'm near certain that sticking to the eastern side reveals more tiles. It's worth a look into.
I might change the micro around a bit for the next turnset however, I think I can squeeze out 5 more hammers into the 1st settler. I also think we can get the other settler out a turn quicker possibly by building the lighthouse then growing rather than doing it the other way round. This will also get our 2nd exploring workboat out earlier I hope.
Yeah, I was possibly still slightly inebriated at the time of posting
. Henge should be well gone before we're even close to hooking up the stone, if it's still up for grabs later then maybe we'll think about it but it's so periphery to the discussion atm that we should leave it for the moment. We shouldn't fall back into that trap of last game where we continually only thought of building a wonder when it was too late and without planning for it. We've picked our wonders for this game, let's stick with that for the moment.
bobbyboy29
I was saying boo-urns...
Okay, I got the oracle a turn earlier! 
I switched up some micro, prioritised growth whilst building the galley so that Paris grows to size 4 the turn it whips the galley, unfortunately it doesn't get the settler out earlier as it only brings in 2 extra hammers, but this allows us to get the worker done 1 turn earlier so he can chop for a 1775BC oracle! I'm going to update the plan on the previous page to reflect the changes rather than reposting it if that's ok. Maybe you can link to it on the first page for the moment GB?
I tried going masonry first to put an early hammer into mids to throw the AI's off but I think that passive research bonuses screwed me or something because I ended up short by at least 6-7 commerce despite working the exact same tiles! Is there any way to check before deciding which path will give us better passive research bonuses? I think there must be a way. We can always adjust and delay the oracle by 1-2 turns but it'd be better to know.
I switched up some micro, prioritised growth whilst building the galley so that Paris grows to size 4 the turn it whips the galley, unfortunately it doesn't get the settler out earlier as it only brings in 2 extra hammers, but this allows us to get the worker done 1 turn earlier so he can chop for a 1775BC oracle! I'm going to update the plan on the previous page to reflect the changes rather than reposting it if that's ok. Maybe you can link to it on the first page for the moment GB?I tried going masonry first to put an early hammer into mids to throw the AI's off but I think that passive research bonuses screwed me or something because I ended up short by at least 6-7 commerce despite working the exact same tiles! Is there any way to check before deciding which path will give us better passive research bonuses? I think there must be a way. We can always adjust and delay the oracle by 1-2 turns but it'd be better to know.
vranasm
Deity
what exactly you have on mind? the only way is I suppose make spreadsheet and game it a bit with variants, where you can easily see accumulated commerce over time.
That way you get in in one place instead of bunch of test saves for comparing.
bobbyboy29
I was saying boo-urns...
@Jaybone: The focus of the current plan is not actually getting the oracle early. This is a nice side effect. The real bonus comes from freeing up the cap from being caught up in chopping, and whipping the oracle and allowing us to get the extra settler out and lighthouse up. So yes, we're getting it early, but at the same time we're not sacrificing too much to get there, expansion and city development is still pretty good. I agree that we shouldn't fixate on the dates though. In fact, my getting the oracle 1 turn earlier this time was just a happy accident from trying to get other builds completed. The real bonus is actually that the corn gets farmed 1 turn earlier and we gain 4 hammers and 2 food in the cap.
I think that the main difference is coming from the bonus you get from techs which the AI have researched. If that is the case, then it's only the live save which can tell us which techs give the most bonuses and when. We already know that someone has researched med so myst and then med should be ok. Although, like I said, I'd like to research masonry a little earlier but it's not worth it if we delay getting pottery on time.
I think that the main difference is coming from the bonus you get from techs which the AI have researched. If that is the case, then it's only the live save which can tell us which techs give the most bonuses and when. We already know that someone has researched med so myst and then med should be ok. Although, like I said, I'd like to research masonry a little earlier but it's not worth it if we delay getting pottery on time.
vranasm
Deity
ah i see what meant right now.
If I remember correctly this bonus (or tech discount?) is applied when you only met some AI knowing the tech.
It's that what you mean? Because other AI's tech path in this situation is irrelevant until we meet some of them (except for the danger them getting Oracle before us).
I agree it's something where our test game will get desynced with the real game.
Now i will pull some number out of my teeth, but I think it is something like 5% per know AI with the tech?
If I remember correctly this bonus (or tech discount?) is applied when you only met some AI knowing the tech.
It's that what you mean? Because other AI's tech path in this situation is irrelevant until we meet some of them (except for the danger them getting Oracle before us).
I agree it's something where our test game will get desynced with the real game.
Now i will pull some number out of my teeth, but I think it is something like 5% per know AI with the tech?
Agree with Bobby here. Yes the Oracle is a detour but it is a lot quicker than teching TC itself. TC looks to be an important wonder this game and I have no doubt the other teams are beelining the oracle too for this same reason or because it is the Oracle. lol. By a methodical group effort we have found the best way to rex to 3 cities and explore the local islands.
A phoneix would certainly burn through many an ideas before settling in the dust.
In terms of the Oracle city. A chop and whip providing lighthouse and a workboat is hardly a waste. On a hammer poor map we will be whipping quite a lot of builds anyway for pop or for hammer O/F's. We also give the GP points to a secondary city to open up a GE/GS strategy.
In terms of Oracle dates. 1750bc will match the earliest date provided by the Spanish who I gave marble in BFC on Lymonds test save. Let's hope they don't have marble.
Overall I think our start is fine and seems to fit the bill in so many ways including freeing up the capital for expansion or other duties.
