SGOTM 14 - Pre-game Discussion Thread

Does anyone have any thoughts on how we might phrase a recommendation/edict/rule for SGOTM teams to ensure that more than one player dominates the game play?

The S in SGOTM is short for Succession. However, there's nothing in the current rules to ensure that SGOTMs are played this way.

Should we just say a turn set should be finished after a maximum of N turns, and passed to the next player? What should N be? Should it be constant, or vary during the game?

Thoughts?
 
A bit of a sticky issue, since this is a friendly, honor-system competition. Obviously, the spirit of the Succession GOTM is a number of players handing off and interacting.

That said, you might simply set some extreme limits, such as, in terms of percentages of turns. For example, no player 50+% of the turns, no two players 75+% of the turns, etc.
 
That said, you might simply set some extreme limits, such as, in terms of percentages of turns. For example, no player 50+% of the turns, no two players 75+% of the turns, etc.

I like this idea, but I believe the limits are too extreme. Given that we agreed that a team must have a minimum of six members, allowing a single player to play up to 50% of the total turns in a game seems too high to me, because that would imply that the remaining five players are each playing an average of 10% of the total turns of the game. The percentages only get worst for larger teams like a team of 11 where one player plays up to 50% of the turns and the remaining 10 players would play only 5% of the turns on average.

Ensuring each player gets to play a minimum percentage of turns is another issue that should not be mandated by this rule or any rule, since its so dependent on team size.

I agree with LowtherCastle that the rule should set a maximum percentage any player may play. I would recommend that maximum be 33% or twice the average play time of a team of six. It should be a fixed amount so it doesn't restrict larger teams more than smaller teams; this avoids the issue brought up in the previous paragraph.

To go further, I'd suggest that two players combined be limited to a maximum of 50% of the turns. No rules for three players or more dominating game play, since that may equal the size of the core active players in a team, and there's no sense in restricting the amount of their play, since there will always be some imbalance in teams after all; also three of six is already half of team of size six (ideal minimum size).

Sun Tzu Wu
 
The simplest might be: each player cannot play more than 25% of the game turns, the rule apply from right after the first 100 turns (so nobody should play more than 25 turns in the first 100, and after that at least a fifth player must play).

[Or less restrictive: each player cannot play more than 33% of the game turns, the rule apply from right after the first 99 turns (so nobody should play more than 33 turns in the first 99, and after that at least a fourth player must play)].

Just dropping a simple idea from a beginner trying to help here, so take it with the obvious doubts about being or not a good solution. :)
 
Does anyone have any thoughts on how we might phrase a recommendation/edict/rule for SGOTM teams to ensure that more than one player dominates the game play?
Honestly, I don't see the need for this kind of a rule. A lot of things could happen. Here are just a few examples.

Some players might be busy for the first part of the game (can comment but not play turnsets) and will commit to playing later turnsets but then the team could unexpectedly win 100 years earlier. I, myself, am terrible at predicting ending dates, and while a few players can do it reliably, the emphasis here is on the word "few." It's a very plausible scenario.

Some players could be incredibly active in terms of discussions, making spreadsheets, digging-up info, or even just providing a strong guiding hand of experience. These players may have little or no turnsets in the game yet their contribution could be huge. How would you objectively judge this level of participation? I claim that you can't, at least not in a feasible enough manner to warrant doing it for this kind of game. Who is to say that "playing turnets" is more dominating that "telling other players what to do"? I would actually tend to think that the latter can have a huge impact on the game, yet I don't see mention of putting a rule on commenting about other players' turnsets.

What happens if real life gets in the way and some players have to drop out or don't have time to play turnsets? Are we going to say "oh, we're terribly sorry, but you lost the game, because all of your remaining players have played too many turnsets/too high a percentage of the game"? It would be quite unfair to everyone on that team and would put a lot of unnecessary pressure on people who had unexpected real-life events get in the way, since not only would they have to deal with terrible real life issues, but they'd have to deal with the guilt of having disqualified their team!

Yes, it can get silly if more than half of the team ends up lurking, but trust the players to resolve this kind of an issue ourselves. Taking OSS as an example: we had half of the team lurking or no-showing last game. Those same players are not joining again. We, as a team, have resolved the issue. I trust that other teams will be able to do the same kind of internal team management far better than any set of conditions on playing time can accomplish.
 
I would prefer to not have a strict rule on it, as it's nice to be able to have some players pick up the slack when others aren't available due to RL commitments. I understand what the goal is here, but a flat percentage may result in teams not being able to complete games at all.
 
Honestly, I don't see the need for this kind of a rule. A lot of things could happen. Here are just a few examples.

I believe the intent of this rule is ensure SGTOM doesn't become a competition where on some teams, a single player or a pair of players play the vast majority of all turns of a game. It is a succession game after all and not an individual or pairs game.

There is a problem to address when a single player plays over half of all the turns in a SGOTM. There is a similar problem when two players combined play over two thirds of the turns in a SGTOM. Frankly, in both cases its hard to think of it as really a team effort at all.

Some players might be busy for the first part of the game (can comment but not play turnsets) and will commit to playing later turnsets but then the team could unexpectedly win 100 years earlier. I, myself, am terrible at predicting ending dates, and while a few players can do it reliably, the emphasis here is on the word "few." It's a very plausible scenario.

In my opinion, the rule simply needs to be enforced only at the end of the game. The team must adjust their players' turn totals to comply by the end of the game or it will be disqualified.

Some players could be incredibly active in terms of discussions, making spreadsheets, digging-up info, or even just providing a strong guiding hand of experience. These players may have little or no turnsets in the game yet their contribution could be huge. How would you objectively judge this level of participation? I claim that you can't, at least not in a feasible enough manner to warrant doing it for this kind of game. Who is to say that "playing turnets" is more dominating that "telling other players what to do"? I would actually tend to think that the latter can have a huge impact on the game, yet I don't see mention of putting a rule on commenting about other players' turnsets.

The concern is over who actually plays the turns. Lurkers are ignored with respect to this new rule, because by definition they play no turn sets at all. Team discussion is also irrelevant to the reason why this rule should exist as well. This rule must prevent the extreme of "one person literally playing the whole game himself". We should all be able to agree that if a SGOTM team literally had a single player play all turns of the game, that game should be ineligible for any awards. This rule is intended prevent something close to this from happening, where a single player or two players combined are playing the vast majority of all turns in the game.

What happens if real life gets in the way and some players have to drop out or don't have time to play turnsets? Are we going to say "oh, we're terribly sorry, but you lost the game, because all of your remaining players have played too many turnsets/too high a percentage of the game"? It would be quite unfair to everyone on that team and would put a lot of unnecessary pressure on people who had unexpected real-life events get in the way, since not only would they have to deal with terrible real life issues, but they'd have to deal with the guilt of having disqualified their team!

When a Team doesn't meet a requirement of the SGOTM win, their entry is disqualified (can't win laurels). If a team failed to properly plan their turn set and can not comply with this rule, they should resign. We can't guaranteed that all SGOTM teams that start a game will complete it. Some teams abandon games for the reason (real life) you state above.

Yes, it can get silly if more than half of the team ends up lurking, but trust the players to resolve this kind of an issue ourselves. Taking OSS as an example: we had half of the team lurking or no-showing last game. Those same players are not joining again. We, as a team, have resolved the issue. I trust that other teams will be able to do the same kind of internal team management far better than any set of conditions on playing time can accomplish.

If only half a team of six is actually playing, it is still quite easy to comply with the rule. Just split the remaining turns among three players, and no one player should end up with more than 33% of the total turns.

If only two active players remain, it may be difficult to comply with the rule. That should be ok, because a team with only two active (non-lurking) players should probably resign, unless they are very close to completing the game in two "normal" sized turn sets. A 60t turn set would not pass muster in this regard.

When a team loses literally half their active players, perhaps they should resign rather than complete the game with just three players (their choice). If a team is down to only two non-lurking players, its not really much of a succession game any more and should probably resign.

Maximum Turn Set Length:

Going back to what AlanH said about a maximum turn set length: This wouldn't actually solve the problem entirely. Two players could hand off to each other, other players giving real life excuses not to play and comply with the maximum turn rule easily, yet they would play all turns of the game between them. However, it may the simplest way the solve the problem. Teams often start the game with a very long turn set, so we may want to defer enforcement of this particular rule till turn 50 or turn 100. I'm fine without this deferment too. A maximum of 25 turns per turn set seems reasonable.

Can someone else, please comment on these two proposed rules?

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Has there actually been a problem with teams not playing this way? I agree with LC that extreme limits are a good solution. The game is 4 months long, so I don't think there should be too strict a limit that players dropping out means a team can't complete the game.
 
This is a tricky one.

We have seen many times in the past where teams were down to 2 players by the end, so any blanket rule on percentage really won't apply.

Even the max turns in a row thing could be problematical, especially if a team is reduced to a handful of active players and the deadline is looming, but I think it would still be the most sensible.

A recommendation that 25 turns at most be played during a normal turnset, which would exclude the start. But this would only be a recommendation, and not strictly enforced. The mods can always intercede.
 
i wouldnt really like a strikt rule like that.

if there is a lot of discussion and planning done by a team and only a few players execute the turns following the detailed planning, i dont see a real problem (:lol: i must admit that i tend to have this opinion because i, personally, like planning a lot, simulation stuff, comming up with diferent strats and such, but i´m a bit lazy when it comes to execute the turns)

there might be others like me, meaning players that joined here mainly for discussing, simulating, mming and planning. and as i already stated, as long as plans decided as a team are "only" executed by a few/a single player i dont really see a problem
 
I have to agree that a strict rule may not be plausible. While I hate to see this competition won by a deity player who essentially plays the whole game alone, in several of FEs games the team has been reduced to only a couple active players and we have gone out of bour way to be fair and still finish and I would not want our small team's effort to be disqualified based on some arbitrary turn number limit. Those teams violating the 'spirit' of the game know who they are and should resign at that point but forcing them to quit will just lead to other ways to accomplish this.
We all just need to realize this is a friendly competition and cheater will find a way to cheat so everyone have some ethics ...
 
I think defining turn length is not a good idea. For instance if you have a day left to the deadline someone might need to play 30-40 turns to complete the game. You may also get a situation where 3-4 members of a team are busy with real life.

As we saw last game teams varied on turnset length form 4-15 turns. We need to allow some flexibility.

I think if most teams run a rota this problem should not happen.

If players just want to learn from the deity level players/ just plan out the game they should sign up as lurkers.

Overall a generalised rule should do.
 
Please don't introduce this draconian rule where I am either forced to use what little time I don't have to get X amount of turns in, despite there is clearly someone else on my team who others would have voted to take over this sort of thing for us so we wouldn't have to worry about it in the first place.
 
:agree:
 
Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. They are all really helpful.

I don't agree that letting one or two players play all the turns, even if the rest of the team provides a lot of planning input, meets the spirit of a succession game. While a few players may be fully competent to handle all surprises as they play, others may find unexpected events more of a challenge, and they do add considerable spice to the game. Planning the next turn set is only a part of the game. As an average player, I think you can learn much more from *playing* a piece of the game, and then telling the team what you discovered and achieved, than sitting on the sidelines and waiting for an expert to report back on his/her turns.

I also think that percentages are difficult, when you don't know for sure how long the game will take. And I don't want a situation where a team suddenly loses players to real life pressures, and has to abandon two or three months of hard work just because they are down to a couple of active players.

I don't ever want to be draconian over this sort of issue. This isn't about cheating, it's about trying to ensure that as many people as possible get something out of playing the game. With 80 signed up players, I'd like to think that well over 50% of them will get their hands on the mouse a few times in the next four months.

I think neilmeister sums up an appropriate approach for us to try this time around. I therefore propose that we recommend that teams try to ensure that each turn set does not exceed 25 turns after the first 100 turns, and that those first 100 turns should be shared by more than one person (99:1 doesn't really count as "shared"!). We can look at the statistics at the end of the game and see if this was effective in increasing hands-on participation. If not, we can think again.

If we can agree on this, I'll add it to the Game description in the first post, and it will be enshrined in the Maintenance Thread opening post.
 
I therefore propose that we recommend that teams try to ensure that each turn set does not exceed 25 turns after the first 100 turns, and that those first 100 turns should be shared by more than one person (99:1 doesn't really count as "shared"!). We can look at the statistics at the end of the game and see if this was effective in increasing hands-on participation. If not, we can think again.

If we can agree on this, I'll add it to the Game description in the first post, and it will be enshrined in the Maintenance Thread opening post.

I think this is fair, it leaves the option open to play a longer opening set where there is less to consider.

Thank you Alan, once again :goodjob:
 
If we can agree on this,

Well I don't quite see us all agreeing to this.

If I am strept for time, am I still allowed to forward all my turns to a player that I TRUST, even if he already did a lot of turns? Or do I have to tell my girlfriend "No sex again tonight, if I don't put my hours into my SG game, my team is going to lose."

I've already got in enough trouble with the girlfriend thing as it is (and mentioned elsewhere on the forum). Yes, I think I'm getting old...
 
I'm sure our team will have no problem agreeing to this recommendation AlanH.

As for, "If I am strept for time, am I still allowed to forward all my turns to a player that I TRUST, even if he already did a lot of turns?"

The teams I have been on in the past 12 games have basically set a rotation for play that more or less stays the same. Players can request to be skipped if something in real life is making the timing difficult, or sometimes swap positions with another player to keep the game on pace. It has always seemed to work itself out, and I believe this is why AlanH prefers a "minimum" number of players per team.

As for, "Or do I have to tell my girlfriend "No sex again tonight, if I don't put my hours into my SG game, my team is going to lose."

I've already got in enough trouble with the girlfriend thing as it is (and mentioned elsewhere on the forum). Yes, I think I'm getting old..."

There are 24 hours every day, as another "older guy", I would suggest exploring more options timing wise, and highly recommend "date night" at least once a week.

Sorry for the Spam....;)
 
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