SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

I don't see any way of attacking the Axeman 1-S of SheepTown to gain a total of 5 XP without much risk. Our Axeman C1Med1 can only get even 50% odds and it already has enough XP (6/10). Our Axeman NP 4.1 3/2 could be promoted to C1 4.5 3/5, but its odds would probably be between 1/3 and 1/2 which would pay back plenty of XP, but the odds are simply to low to risk 3 XP already gained. Attacking with a Axeman NP 5.0 would be about 1/3 odds, but pays back only 4 XP (1 short of making it remotely worthwhile).

Yeah I see not enough value for investment here.

Notice that Osaka has only a single defender, an Archer CG2Dr1. This either means he's diverted the other defender to Settler escort or he's at War with another Civ that is draining his units.

If Tokugawa retreats, we probably should allow him to do so. Osaka may be tempting, but it would probably cost us at least 3 Axemen and possibly more to capture. Six Chariots could easily take it, especially with an Axeman defender. But it will be tougher for Six mainly not promoted Axemen; they are too slow and will not do very well attacking a Axeman C1Shock (if one shows up). However, WastinTime and mabraham are probably right, we do have a good chance of taking Osaka and there may be some value in doing so (advancing our VC).

Sun Tzu Wu

We don't have horses, so let's not worry about chariots.

A side benefit of moving on Osaka is that we may get to pick off some reinforcing archers and spears, even if we don't end up committing. If he strips Kyoto we might divert there, but it is less attractive for us to own.
 
PigGems is at 16/60 on a granary increasing by 2/turn, so by the time we do two 20:hammers: chops, the granary will finish. So I'd like to do something more like bcool's suggestion #1377 than PPP rev 3.

PPP Rev 3 is doing the above, except it starts a Trireme rather than a Work Boat. It seems that I have miscalculated when the Granary completes. The Trireme can start on t78 which quite different from what PPP Rev 3 says.

So do we want both a Work Boat and a Trireme out of PigsGems?

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I also checked out the odds of attacking the Axeman. No good. If he was damaged a bit, I would say take him out, but he is healthy and we don't have a single, full health, C1 Axe other than our healer.
 
PPP Rev 3 is doing the above, except it starts a Trireme rather than a Work Boat. It seems that I have miscalculated when the Granary completes. The Trireme can start on t78 which quite different from what PPP Rev 3 says.

So do we want both a Work Boat and a Trireme out of PigsGems?

Sun Tzu Wu

After the granary, I think we want both boats sooner rather than later. I don't mind which is first, both are useful in different ways. We do have an axe on the queue, which I'd prioritise only if Hammu threatens. I'd rather spend time getting those boats ASAP and wasting hammers on the axeman than finishing the axeman and delaying the boats. I think we want information about the island, and what Hammu's doing, and what's beyond him much more than a third-rate 0XP axe defender.
 
great news on the attack against SheepTown.

I think we want a trireme out of PigsGems rather than a workboat. The trireme will take us to the end of your turnset. The trireme can scout hammuragawa and the island eventually. We probably want a workboat after the trireme to put fishing nets on the crabs (assuming we are going to finish the settler in Delhi sooner rather than later.

I'll look at the save, but I'm happy to leave Toku decisions to other who have more time to look at the situation.

Osaka has 118 sabotage production and Tokyo 165 sabotage production
So Osaka might finish an archer next turn and Tokyo might finish an axe.

If we take 3 turns to get to Osaka, Osaka could finish an axe and archer if he whips.

If we go on the offensive we might want to just threaten him to get a better peace offer perhaps a little pillaging (ideally timed for when we expect Toku to start talking to us)
 
wow - great news indeed! no losses, cool! :D

Toku should still have the C2 Axe running around somewhere, his Axe 1S of Kyoto likely also heads back to Osaka (btw I assume 1 healthy Axe in SheepTown is enough to deter him from attacking). I don't think we'll get Osaka that cheap, but let's see ...
 
t74 progress report:

Completed Fishing.

Tokugawa has one unit in our Culture: Axeman C1CR1 at 1-S of SheepTown heading SE. 2-SE of that Axeman is a Spearman C2 that came out of the fog.

SheepTown defenders:

Axeman C1Med1 5.0 6/10 XP 25% F
Axeman NP 3.8 1/2 XP 15% F
Axeman NP 5.0 0/2 XP 15% F
Axeman NP 4.1 3/2 XP 05% F
Axeman NP 5.0 0/2 XP 00% F
Axeman NP 5.0 0/2 XP 15% F

Do we press our luck attacking the Axeman with any of our healthy Axemen?

We can now see Tokyo!

I'm planning to Upload the current save to the SGOTM server.

Sun Tzu Wu


Wow! Amazing results for us :eek:

Toku just lost in a big way. It isn't so easy for Emporer AI to replace such losses as it could on Deity. I see no reason not to fish for an easy Osaka capture at this point moving forward.
 
It looks safe to move out with four axes to the hill across the river. I suggest leaving Amundsen and Axe 4 (who at 76/100 will heal in 1 turn in the city with Amundsen's help) on defence, bringing up the rear with Axe 5. Toku's remaining axe will presumably scuttle back home. Next turn leave Axe 5 on defence, bring the other two and continue the advance with four axes to the corn to cut off reinforcements to Osaka. Next turn again, De Soto can apply his upgrade-heal together with Amundsen's arrival to heal fully. I anticipate Toku will have whipped an archer, so we are decently likely in three turns from now to have six axes against two archers, or maybe an archer and an axe.


This appears to be the optimal military play. Let me check on the danger of shock axemen hitting our stack when it moves onto the corn.

Screenshot of current T74 situation from real game:
Spoiler :


**Edit**
Ya, war against Toku sucks. With barracks we could see a shock axe attack at any time pretty much, and it will have better odds than one of our axes defending on a hill.

If we are intent on taking Osaka, it might be possible to herd Toku's axe that is south of our Sheeptown. Send two healthy axes 1E and another healthy axe+injured axe with the promo onto the hill 1S1E. If Toku's axe attacks across the river against either pair, he will have less than even odds. If he attacks Sheeptown he will die for sure. If he moves 1S1E, then our two pairs of axes can converge onto corn and block him from Osaka. If he attacks our stack of 4 axes at that point since he has superior odds, then the pair of trailing axes can finish him off.

It is possible that in doing this, Osaka could finish a shock axe and attack our pair of axe on the grass tile and kill one. Or, Toku could send a shock axes to kill our axe on a hill, and the injured axe might be killed by Toku's axe south of Sheeptown. The safer path would be to move 4 axe onto sheep, then move them onto the hill 1N1W of Osaka. We would be less likely to lose axes this way as the situation develops, but Tokugawa would have a much easier time reinforcing Osaka this way too. Once again, I'd say this decision is a tough call.

There are good benefits to capturing Osaka. We get the corn right away. We get an important piece that we can use later to get open borders with Tokugawa. This could be important as it appears the only way to the other side of him is open borders, a spy, or taking his capital. Also, since he appears to be landlocked/cornered, should he become our AP opponent I can't imagine he would be able to muster many votes.
 
wow - great news indeed! no losses, cool! :D

Toku should still have the C2 Axe running around somewhere, his Axe 1S of Kyoto likely also heads back to Osaka (btw I assume 1 healthy Axe in SheepTown is enough to deter him from attacking).

Amundsen with full fortification was only at 80% against a C1CR1 axe, so unless we have a reason to know he won't attack, only defending with one axe seems pretty risky.
 
It looks safe to move out with four axes to the hill across the river. I suggest leaving Amundsen and Axe 4 (who at 76/100 will heal in 1 turn in the city with Amundsen's help) on defence, bringing up the rear with Axe 5. Toku's remaining axe will presumably scuttle back home. Next turn leave Axe 5 on defence, bring the other two and continue the advance with four axes to the corn to cut off reinforcements to Osaka. Next turn again, De Soto can apply his upgrade-heal together with Amundsen's arrival to heal fully. I anticipate Toku will have whipped an archer, so we are decently likely in three turns from now to have six axes against two archers, or maybe an archer and an axe. Or we might bring Axe 5 along as well! Losing 2-4 axes for 10-20 turns faster corn access plus an easy peace-gift city sounds like a good return to me.

I can execute mabraham's military plan. While ensuring the safety of SheepTown, I can commit to a backup wave of 1-3 Axemen to follow the initial four by 1t.

Please consider the above an amendment to the "t72-t79 PPP Rev 3".

I have adjusted the units on both sides in the attached test game to more closely resemble the Real Game situation.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Ya, war against Toku sucks. With barracks we could see a shock axe attack at any time pretty much, and it will have better odds than one of our axes defending on a hill.

If we are intent on taking Osaka, it might be possible to herd Toku's axe that is south of our Sheeptown. Send two healthy axes 1E and another healthy axe+injured axe with the promo onto the hill 1S1E. If Toku's axe attacks across the river against either pair, he will have less than even odds. If he attacks Sheeptown he will die for sure. If he moves 1S1E, then our two pairs of axes can converge onto corn and block him from Osaka. If he attacks our stack of 4 axes at that point since he has superior odds, then the pair of trailing axes can finish him off.

It is possible that in doing this, Osaka could finish a shock axe and attack our pair of axe on the grass tile and kill one. Or, Toku could send a shock axes to kill our axe on a hill, and the injured axe might be killed by Toku's axe south of Sheeptown. The safer path would be to move 4 axe onto sheep, then move them onto the hill 1N1W of Osaka. We would be less likely to lose axes this way as the situation develops, but Tokugawa would have a much easier time reinforcing Osaka this way too. Once again, I'd say this decision is a tough call.

There are good benefits to capturing Osaka. We get the corn right away. We get an important piece that we can use later to get open borders with Tokugawa. This could be important as it appears the only way to the other side of him is open borders, a spy, or taking his capital. Also, since he appears to be landlocked/cornered, should he become our AP opponent I can't imagine he would be able to muster many votes.

I like the plan to herd Toku's axe to the SE. We can zoom in on Osaka to see whether it has a barracks (compare with the picture of a barracks in the Civilopedia), but risking the appearance of a shock axe is something we have to accept if we want to try for Osaka.
 
I will try to capture Osaka.

I will modify to split forces 1-E and 1-SE.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Tokugawa completes a C1 Axeman in Osaka.

Tokugawa's Axeman C1CR1 -> 1-SE.

Tokugawa's Spearman C2 -> 1-NE.

See attached Screenshot.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Tokugawa completes a C1 Axeman in Osaka.

Tokugawa's Axeman C1CR1 -> 1-SE.

Tokugawa's Spearman C2 -> 1-NE.

See attached Screenshot.

Sun Tzu Wu

Toku has whipped Osaka, so he will probably build an archer from the overflow. Assuming he has a barracks in Osaka, that new Toku axe will have shock available, so advancing to the corn seems premature. Odds do not look good.

Unfortunately we moved Axeman 5 across the river to a tile with no road, so we don't even have the option of forming a 7-axe SOD on the grassland hill. Sorry I didn't think to warn against such a move.

I suggest we move Axeman 5 to SheepTown, apply C1 to De Soto and consolidate our 6-axe stack on the river hill. I'm hoping the new Toku axe doesn't stay on defence. I can't see any advantages to moving Axeman 5 to the sheep, or similar.
 
Toku has whipped Osaka, so he will probably build an archer from the overflow. Assuming he has a barracks in Osaka, that new Toku axe will have shock available, so advancing to the corn seems premature. Odds do not look good.

Unfortunately we moved Axeman 5 across the river to a tile with no road, so we don't even have the option of forming a 7-axe SOD on the grassland hill. Sorry I didn't think to warn against such a move.

I suggest we move Axeman 5 to SheepTown, apply C1 to De Soto and consolidate our 6-axe stack on the river hill. I'm hoping the new Toku axe doesn't stay on defence. I can't see any advantages to moving Axeman 5 to the sheep, or similar.

Hmm second option:

Two axes to the hill NW of Osaka, Axeman 5 to 1S of sheep, other four consolidate on the river hill and heal De Soto as before. Best case Toku uses the new axe to attack us on either hill and loses. Next best he attacks us and wins, but we get to advance 7 axes on Osaka somehow or other. Still not great odds against two archers, spear and maybe injured axe defending.
 
Yes, Osaka does appear to have a Barracks.

The whipped Axeman in Osaka makes our capture of Osaka very difficult, especially with the Axeman C1CR1 and Spearman C2 nearby.

OK, I can consolate six Axeman on the GH 1-SE of SheepTown and move the seventh Axeman into SheepTown.

I'll try second option instead: 2 Axemen on GH 1-NW of Osaka. Axe 5 1-S of Sheep. Remaining 4 Axemen on GH 1-SE of SheepTown.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Located Axeman C1Shock at 1-SE of Osaka. See attached Screenshot.

Our chances of capturing Osaka are waning fast.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Yes, Osaka does appear to have a Barracks.

The whipped Axeman in Osaka makes our capture of Osaka very difficult, especially with the Axeman C1CR1 and Spearman C2 nearby.

OK, I can consolate six Axeman on the GH 1-SE of SheepTown and move the seventh Axeman into SheepTown.

I'll try second option instead: 2 Axemen on GH 1-NW of Osaka. Axe 5 1-S of Sheep. Remaining 4 Axemen on GH 1-SE of SheepTown.

Sun Tzu Wu


As long as Tokugawa keeps whipping superior units I'm not sure we can take Osaka without producing more axes.
 
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