SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

bcool said:
I think we want to make peace with Hammy and call for a holy war on Shaka (this will give us OBs with Hammy and Toku (a shared war always allows OB regardless of relations)
Click to expand...


Disagree. I'll get my goal PPP out shortly.
(btw, this is my "I got the save" post....and nice work mabraham!)
 
REVISED: PPP Goals (T100-110)

Make peace with Hammu t103, only after 2 axes and settler/missionary cross Nippur.
(Optional: try to get a tech for peace)
Liberate hindu city (1S3W) to Hammu t104.
Vote for WAR on Shaka t105..results in effect t106.
Open borders w/Hamm & Toku

Send the 2 Axes west of Nippur thru Hammu to look for open settling sites and possibly engage Shaka.

Send settler/missionary pairs to get city gifts (liberate?) for Shaka and Hats.
Send a 3rd settler-only to liberate a 2nd city to Hammu

Shaka could be just over the mountains and may take the city 3N1E of Nippur.
For this reason, don't settle that city until we make peace with Shaka, otherwise he might ask for this city. We would rather liberate/gift it to him.

Liberate a city to Hats.

Have 5 total members! (technically 4, we will hold onto the Shaka Hindu-gift until t114 so he doesn't lose it. This gives us OB with Shaka next vote. If he loses the city after that, we can simply spread hindu to another city of his while borders are open.)

Have 2 new settler/missionary pairs close to completion, or already heading to the Hats and Shaka borders to cross T116.

Magellan (with help from the spy) will try for circumnav bonus by scouting west along the mountains (by first going SE). Do you fog gazers know if that way is open?

Options to discuss:
The spy could try to convert Toku to Hindu. Short term benefits? might trade IW. Do we know if he can broker that tech?
The spy could instead steal IW and then go exploring in case our other spy gets caught.

Research: Construction in 3 turns (for cats, but also bridges -- our settler/missionary is faster)
0% IW until we steal IW
100% Compass
Great Engineer -> bulb Machinery
 
Why is an AP vote for OB better than a holy war vs Shaka?

With a holy war vs. Shaka we get open borders from Hammy and Toku (and we are guaranteed that they will not declare on us at least as long as their war with Shaka lasts)

The war declaration from Hammy on Shaka kicks Shaka's units out of his lands, so we don't have to worry about those units in his land attacking our settlers.

The war declaration from Hammy and Toku on Shaka ruins their relationship so we don't have to worry about Shaka bribing Hammy or Toku into war against later on.

The shared war diplo benefits with Toku and Hammy with give us options later (trades, voting for us in the AP diplo win)

We can make peace with Shaka after the holy war is declared and still gift him a city and get him into Hinduism.

Flipping Toku to Hinduism and the shared war diplo benefits will let us get him to pleased and will let us trade iron working from him.
 
Our game ends (in victory) when we reach the final AIs which we assume are at the end of a maze of others. Probably two AI are buried deep--one in each direction (thru Toku/Hats and thru Hamm/Shaka).

We can get shared war bonuses later. Right now, I see the most important goal is getting OB with Shaka(and Hats) so we can move on to the next AIs while (thru some miracle) there is still land open to settle so we can pull the same trick. Chances are this trick will run out of gas and we will have to war, but we will want to travel peacefully thru Shaka.

Question: what is the chance they would defy a war vote? or any vote for that matter?
 
The shared war gets us open borders. If you are in a shared war with an AI then they will Open Borders with you regardless of the relations you have with that AI.

There is a reasonable chance that they would defy a resolution to go to war. I don't know what the mechanics of that decision is.

They certainly like Shaka more than they like us (well Toku might not if we flip him to Hinduism)
However Hammy would probably like Shaka significantly more than they would like us.

I would assume that they would be more likely to defy a call to war than open borders. However I don't know.

We really need to figure out how likely it is for the them to defy a vote.

If they are equally likely to defy a war vote as an open borders vote then, the holy war options is still the best because it gets us Open Borders too!
 
now it's getting really interesting!

AFAIK players can't defy either vote (OB & force war), only force peace and assign city (civic and nuke ban for UN too).

I like bcool's suggestion, other Tokus might give Hammu and Toku -1 declared war on friend. But there is the danger of more dogpile-bribery ...

I will be away for a while. Best of luck and happy easter! :)
 
RE: culture tile color

Hammu's bright pink tiles are darker if the tile is in the fog, so those gray tiles could be white culture (Liz or Lizgawa)
 
OB with Hamm/Toku is a given. I'm concerned about OB with Shaka. A war with him is going to delay that (or not?). If we find a city gift location next to Shaka, we will have a tough time defending that. Are you saying you want to declare the war and then immediately make peace and gift a city? Can we even make peace soon after a Holy war? I need to think some more.
EDIT: I was thinking this war would delay peace with Shaka, but it won't, so Holy war seems like the better option.
 
Sorry I haven't been on much, work got crazy the last 2 weeks. :(


Nice work Sun Tzu Wu, Walter Wolf, and Mabraham on your turn sets! The game is really advancing I see.

Getting Alphabet to end the war with Tokugawa was brilliant. Never knew about threatened cities and power ratios, but i've suspected it was something along those lines.
 
DanF5771 said:
now it's getting really interesting!

AFAIK players can't defy either vote (OB & force war), only force peace and assign city (civic and nuke ban for UN too).

I like bcool's suggestion, other Tokus might give Hammu and Toku -1 declared war on friend. But there is the danger of more dogpile-bribery ...

I will be away for a while. Best of luck and happy easter! :)
Click to expand...

wait! :please:

I think players can defy a holy war vote, can you look up the mechanics of it before you go?
 
Ok, although I sorta like the holy war idea. Here's one big problem. Hammu could (and probably will) conquer the Shaka gift city. Would we try to broker peace?

We could try to hold onto the Shaka gift city ourselves until t115.

The other problem with starting massive world wars is that everyone is going to ask us to stop trading and join wars. It could get crazy. I personally would play the peaceful way, but the war sounds like more fun! and more educational. I'm on the fence.
 
Flipping Toku to Hinduism

We most likely need 2 AI in Hinduism for the AP Diplo win vote. One to be our competition and the other one to vote for us. We don't need the AI to be Hindu to get them to vote for us but it will be very hard to get the diplo bonuses necessary for them to vote for us without sharing their religion.

We also need the 2 Hindu AI to not like each other more than they like us.

So who should the 2 Hindu AI be?

Perhaps long term it would be useful to have Hammy and Shaka be the 2 Hindu AI. Hammy and Shaka won't like each other as much since they will have been at war (if the Holy war vote goes as planned).

If we make Hammy and Toku Hindu and have them share a war against Shaka, I think it will be difficult to make them like us more than the other one.

So if we do flip Toku it will most likely be temporary and not necessarily lead to an attempt to fully convert him.

If we flip Toku then we will be able to get him to pleased with shared war bonuses. (+4 trade, +1 resources, +1 shared war, +1 share religion, -2 close borders) = +5 relations

We definitely need to confirm that he can trade us iron working before we flip him to Hinduism. I believe it says he doesn't like us enough to trade iron working right now. I'm not sure that this means he can trade it to us or if there are more than one reason he won't -- he can't and he doesn't like us enough for example.

The other option for the spy is to steal iron working from him. Stealing Iron Working is only a little more expensive than flipping his religion. I believe the cost of stealing Iron Working is 468 *1.5 * .5 (stationary spy 5 turns) * .6 (religion and holy city) * 1.12 distance * 1.04 espionage spending = 245 (might be lower if we get a trade route with Trojan horse city--this didn't happen in the limited testing I did with the test game).

The cost of flipping him is 600 * .5 * .6 * 1.12 * 1.04 =209 So it is a bit cheaper to flip than steal. Of course stealing means we don't have to trade him a tech as well.

In either case, flipping Toku or stealing Iron working, the spy will likely live and can be a backup scout.
 
bcool said:
We definitely need to confirm that he can trade us iron working before we flip him to Hinduism. I believe it says he doesn't like us enough to trade iron working right now. I'm not sure that this means he can trade it to us or if there are more than one reason he won't -- he can't and he doesn't like us enough for example.
Click to expand...

The game says "We just don't like you enough."

I have test map with Tokus that is set up for diplomacy testing in post 929.
 
I am worried that Toku may stay in Hinduism if we flip him. He has no religion spread to other cities. Kyoto has no temple or monastery since has not researched the appropriate techs. Hinduism may start to auto spread. Currently he has 6 pop Buddhist and 1 pop Hindu. He may switch to in on his own anyhow. I don't like him as a the Hindu that votes for us because of border tension.
 
Diplomacy for providing Resources

25 resource turns (not 50) provides +1 Diplomacy.

50 resource turns provides an extra +1 (+2 total) Diplomacy.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I am worried about Hammuragawa settling (with his settler that just left our forest stack) in the spot below marked with the red BFC. He can kill two of our liberation city sites. We then have to get the second liberation site set before Dur-Kurigalru pops its next border.

I fear it may not be safe to move our first settler to the site 1N3E of Dur-Kurigalru because of Shaka units. The tile 1N of that is probably in Babylon's culture. I am basing this on Osaka extending four culture rings. I assume Bablyon has the same culture. I do like the idea of liberating two cities to Hammarugawa, but I believe we have to move quickly and make peace quickly.

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0042.jpg
 
I agree with shulec. If Tokogawa has about equal numbers of Hindu and Buddhist flowers, he will NOT switch back to Buddhism. In my experience, the AI favor the TAP religion, such that they will switch to it even when the current religion has equal numbers and despite the turn of Anarchy to switch.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I don't think we want any Hindu competition for the vote. We should be able to get supporters. e.g. Hammy (+1 peace, +2 OB, +2 resource, +3 liberate, +4 trade, maybe +1 demand/tribute or mutual struggle, or shared tech, -2 religion)
Now I'm worried that Toku will stay in Hindu (and spread it wildly by the end).
I don't think we should flip him.

Stealing tech has the chance of the -1 spy getting caught causing trouble, correct?
 
shulec said:
I am worried about Hammuragawa settling (with his settler that just left our forest stack) in the spot below marked with the red BFC. He can kill two of our liberation city sites. We then have to get the second liberation site set before Dur-Kurigalru pops its next border.

I fear it may not be safe to move our first settler to the site 1N3E of Dur-Kurigalru because of Shaka units. ]
Click to expand...

I don't think we have a choice for our first city. The coast is the only city-gift we can get by t104. We are cutting that very close! If we wanted one of those other sites, we needed to use the settler that we dropped off on the island. We probably could have had all three of those cities to give to hamm and/or shaka if we skipped the island. I'm optimistic that we will still get 2 if not 3 of these.

I'm concerned that a city near Deergold will cause border tensions. Maybe we should block that with a keeper city (generating little to no culture) 2N3W of Deergold. Am I correct in thinking that border tensions only trigger if you take away a tile from thier BFC?
 
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